1 00:00:11,456 --> 00:00:18,361 Welcome back to Off the Console, the hottest new podcast that's all about gaming, tech news, and anything nerdy. 2 00:00:18,361 --> 00:00:29,350 This week, we're covering the biggest news, including we have a special guest, Ross, with us, and we're gonna be covering the movement Stop Killing Games and various other things, 3 00:00:29,350 --> 00:00:32,912 including the Death of Anthem, which is another game that's dying off. 4 00:00:33,032 --> 00:00:39,036 PewDiePie is de-Googling and various other topics, but the big one today is 5 00:00:39,108 --> 00:00:44,075 stop killing games, which I think most gamers would love to see happen. 6 00:00:44,075 --> 00:00:50,123 uh I'm joined with me, my co-hosts Gardner and Hi Tech Lowlife. 7 00:00:50,504 --> 00:00:55,091 like I mentioned, we have our special guest Ross. 8 00:00:55,091 --> 00:00:56,251 And so. 9 00:00:56,277 --> 00:00:57,664 what channel he's from. 10 00:00:58,044 --> 00:01:00,888 uh Yes, sorry. 11 00:01:00,888 --> 00:01:02,251 Cursed Farms yet. 12 00:01:02,251 --> 00:01:03,131 Yes. 13 00:01:03,453 --> 00:01:09,352 And so uh first off, before we get into anything, what you've been doing or playing? 14 00:01:10,363 --> 00:01:13,956 what I've been playing is the question? 15 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:24,255 I've been pretty much spending almost all free time on the Stop Killing Games campaign, but last month at one point I was playing games, so... 16 00:01:24,616 --> 00:01:33,764 The last ones I was playing which I haven't finished were uh Steel Rising, which is kind of a Dark Souls clone, but has... 17 00:01:34,250 --> 00:01:35,341 options to make it easier. 18 00:01:35,341 --> 00:01:38,554 It's like robots during the French Revolution, essentially. 19 00:01:38,554 --> 00:01:49,342 And one game I've wanted to play a long time, finally I'm getting to, is Forza Horizon 1, except emulated through Xenia. 20 00:01:49,950 --> 00:01:52,375 Nice, I love Xenia, it's awesome. 21 00:01:52,684 --> 00:01:55,305 Yeah, I'm pretty floored by it. 22 00:01:56,911 --> 00:01:57,322 Nice. 23 00:01:57,322 --> 00:01:59,815 Gardner, what have you been up to? 24 00:02:00,994 --> 00:02:11,818 I've been working on a super secret project that I can't really talk about So I'm not going to but I've also been playing uh Domekeeper again. 25 00:02:11,818 --> 00:02:25,131 I got back into it I don't know if you guys have played domekeeper, but you it's like dig dug meets like a tower defense and it's like but with like some resource gathering and uh 26 00:02:25,131 --> 00:02:26,172 Rogue like mechanics. 27 00:02:26,172 --> 00:02:29,567 It's so addictive Yeah 28 00:02:29,567 --> 00:02:30,699 It's really good. 29 00:02:30,699 --> 00:02:33,454 I picked it up this week, Gardner, based on your recommendation. 30 00:02:33,454 --> 00:02:36,974 ah So that, I don't, yeah. 31 00:02:36,974 --> 00:02:38,678 I've been playing that too. 32 00:02:38,678 --> 00:02:39,794 It's crazy, 33 00:02:39,794 --> 00:02:49,460 Yeah, it's one of the most played games in my library now because I've picked it up recently and man It's actually I have a CRT over here. 34 00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:55,904 It's like a old Sony uh Trinitron like and it has an HDMI port in the back. 35 00:02:55,904 --> 00:03:06,470 It's wild and I've been playing a dome keeper on that and it's like It just feels so like perfectly retro on that CRT 36 00:03:06,478 --> 00:03:09,263 I'm gonna need a video of that at some point, Gardener. 37 00:03:09,311 --> 00:03:10,016 yeah, okay. 38 00:03:10,016 --> 00:03:11,855 I'll send you guys a video for sure. 39 00:03:11,855 --> 00:03:13,186 that'd be interesting. 40 00:03:13,267 --> 00:03:15,780 It's surprisingly really fun. 41 00:03:15,780 --> 00:03:19,615 yeah, no, thanks for the recommendation on that. 42 00:03:19,615 --> 00:03:22,278 I've been vibe coding while playing that. 43 00:03:22,522 --> 00:03:23,161 nice. 44 00:03:23,161 --> 00:03:26,392 nice. 45 00:03:26,773 --> 00:03:32,606 It's not gonna be my most played game because my most played game is Destiny 2 on my Steam account. 46 00:03:32,606 --> 00:03:37,218 It's followed by Starbound then Terraria, which is crazy man. 47 00:03:37,218 --> 00:03:38,739 But I can see it being... 48 00:03:38,739 --> 00:03:41,520 Oh man, I've been playing... 49 00:03:41,591 --> 00:03:44,262 I picked up some games like I mentioned before. 50 00:03:44,262 --> 00:03:52,566 Domekeeper was one of them, but I've also been oh looking for games to pick up on some random hidden gems. 51 00:03:52,670 --> 00:03:56,592 You know, because I own a lot of the, like, popular recommended games. 52 00:03:56,592 --> 00:04:03,967 um So I've been trying to deep dive into the Steam sale to see there's any, like, weird little hidden gems that no one's ever talked about. 53 00:04:03,967 --> 00:04:04,948 Most because I'm bored. 54 00:04:04,948 --> 00:04:05,928 But yeah. 55 00:04:06,466 --> 00:04:16,940 Yeah, I'm usually one that go after like the most popular just because of time sake, like sometimes when there's like a gem, I, Domekeeper is the perfect game for me. 56 00:04:16,940 --> 00:04:18,961 I do like all those elements quite a bit. 57 00:04:18,961 --> 00:04:32,967 And so it is really fun and unlocking stuff is been fun because you get to learn about one, like the, you start out with the shield and then you can get into like these defense 58 00:04:32,967 --> 00:04:34,628 creatures or whatever that will defend. 59 00:04:34,628 --> 00:04:35,594 um 60 00:04:35,594 --> 00:04:38,838 and you get to build out different strategies and I really like that. 61 00:04:38,838 --> 00:04:41,650 So it's really fun game and it's. 62 00:04:42,229 --> 00:04:47,200 the mix of all the different things you can uh unlock is really cool too. 63 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:59,535 So you can get like, like you were saying, the shield, or you can upgrade the hull of the dome, or you can get new defenses, uh or even boosts for your mining abilities and 64 00:04:59,535 --> 00:05:00,755 assistance to do it too. 65 00:05:00,755 --> 00:05:02,596 So it's super great. 66 00:05:02,722 --> 00:05:11,738 I mean, and then one of the diggers, I don't even minors or whatever they are, they can like shoot orbs and so you can shoot the orbs to then mine while you do other things. 67 00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:13,340 It's fun. 68 00:05:13,340 --> 00:05:13,720 And. 69 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,388 I've thought of anything like that yet. 70 00:05:16,115 --> 00:05:17,057 Not yet, at least. 71 00:05:17,057 --> 00:05:18,577 it's one of the ones you can unlock. 72 00:05:18,577 --> 00:05:22,477 But yeah, I spent a lot of time and when I. 73 00:05:22,577 --> 00:05:31,297 So I'm still doing my by coding, by coding where I'm working with an AI to do certain parts of a project I'm working on and then I'm playing. 74 00:05:31,297 --> 00:05:32,997 It is. 75 00:05:32,997 --> 00:05:38,557 Made it so that I can work on my project or play games a little bit more, which has been very refreshing. 76 00:05:38,557 --> 00:05:43,389 Like I beat Expedition 33 finally put 80 hours into that. 77 00:05:43,607 --> 00:05:44,243 yeah, how'd you like it? 78 00:05:44,243 --> 00:05:46,048 The editing. 79 00:05:46,048 --> 00:05:48,188 think that's the ending. 80 00:05:48,228 --> 00:05:54,508 I need to go back and because I think there's like multiple endings, but it saves right before the ending. 81 00:05:54,508 --> 00:05:59,268 So I'm to go back and I 99 percent of the game. 82 00:05:59,268 --> 00:06:02,028 There's one boss left that's really hard and I don't. 83 00:06:02,028 --> 00:06:02,788 We'll see if I do that. 84 00:06:02,788 --> 00:06:06,719 But but that's like an after the game kind of Love it. 85 00:06:06,719 --> 00:06:09,950 I recommend it to anyone that even is interested in. 86 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:20,604 I guess a good story that's just different, but because even if you don't like RPGs or um turn-based RPGs and stuff like that, has a unique flair to it that makes it so it doesn't 87 00:06:20,604 --> 00:06:26,587 feel like you're just sitting around doing nothing and it has um elements that you have to work through. 88 00:06:26,587 --> 00:06:31,749 um yeah, so that's what I've been doing. 89 00:06:32,189 --> 00:06:34,885 Before we get into it, make sure to subscribe to YouTube. 90 00:06:34,885 --> 00:06:39,006 We're trying to get to 1,000 subscribers on YouTube before the end of the year. 91 00:06:39,006 --> 00:06:40,538 So make sure to do that. 92 00:06:40,538 --> 00:06:52,449 Also follow us um on podcast.subscribe2.me, our RSS feed if you want to keep up to date with our audio podcast version of the show. 93 00:06:52,449 --> 00:06:54,540 And of course follow us on the Fetaverse. 94 00:06:54,682 --> 00:06:56,634 please go over to YouTube, like and subscribe. 95 00:06:56,634 --> 00:06:59,998 And this really helps us out in the YouTube algorithm as well. 96 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:01,516 Yes. 97 00:07:01,776 --> 00:07:02,716 Okay. 98 00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:09,819 Without further ado, let's go in to the main topic today, which is stop killing games. 99 00:07:09,819 --> 00:07:17,119 Rost, I'll hand it off to you a little bit to describe what this is and then we can just go back and forth and chat about this because I'm really excited. 100 00:07:17,491 --> 00:07:17,981 Sure. 101 00:07:17,981 --> 00:07:20,682 oh Well, stop killing games. 102 00:07:20,682 --> 00:07:26,885 It's one of those things that's simple in concept, but it rapidly gets nuanced depending on how deep you go into it. 103 00:07:27,305 --> 00:07:39,770 The basic concept is we're trying to legally challenge or put an end to the practice of publishers selling you a game, not telling you when it's going to shut down, then later 104 00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:42,471 permanently disabling it and keeping your money. 105 00:07:43,052 --> 00:07:46,173 And we found that's like 106 00:07:46,365 --> 00:07:51,746 Well, in my opinion, it's just the most hostile practice in the game industry towards consumers that there is. 107 00:07:51,907 --> 00:07:56,008 And it's led to more games being effectively destroyed than any other. 108 00:07:56,008 --> 00:08:04,550 ah So it's always just, I've always hated it and the industry has been promising nothing but more. 109 00:08:04,550 --> 00:08:06,891 The industry has been promising more of it. 110 00:08:07,331 --> 00:08:12,553 So what's happened lately though, is we've pursued this in many different ways. 111 00:08:12,553 --> 00:08:13,383 We've... 112 00:08:13,651 --> 00:08:16,883 tried to do petitions to various governments on it. 113 00:08:16,883 --> 00:08:25,609 Also, there was an ideal game to tackle to bring this issue before consumer protection agencies in a few countries with the shutdown of the game, The Crew. 114 00:08:26,150 --> 00:08:37,938 But the big news right now is one of the most powerful options that we've pursued is called the European Citizens Initiative, where anyone who is a citizen of an EU country 115 00:08:37,938 --> 00:08:39,299 can sign this. 116 00:08:39,299 --> 00:08:42,951 And if it gets over a million signatures, then a 117 00:08:42,951 --> 00:08:53,434 verified signatures, I should say, then it gets, it starts a new stage where it gets brought before the EU Commission and they can decide whether they're going to make new law 118 00:08:53,434 --> 00:08:57,945 on this and kind of work out the details based on the complaint and that sort of thing. 119 00:08:57,945 --> 00:09:04,537 Right now, the unfiltered count is over 1 million. 120 00:09:04,537 --> 00:09:05,908 I think it's over 1.1 million. 121 00:09:05,908 --> 00:09:09,829 So we're really in a good spot at the moment. 122 00:09:09,829 --> 00:09:10,909 However, 123 00:09:11,451 --> 00:09:19,235 Anytime somebody makes a big mistake or if there is a signature that wasn't valid Those get thrown out. 124 00:09:19,235 --> 00:09:31,933 So it's kind of a fog where we are exactly but we for sure have a chance it ends at the end of July July 31st, so if I could say one thing just if you are if you are an EU 125 00:09:31,933 --> 00:09:39,497 citizen, you know like France Germany Belgium wherever and you can sign it, please consider doing so it's 126 00:09:39,909 --> 00:09:45,337 I think it could actually change gaming history if we can pull this off for several reasons, but... 127 00:09:47,462 --> 00:09:48,485 I do have one question though. 128 00:09:48,485 --> 00:09:52,917 I believe you also had a separate petition for United Kingdom residents. 129 00:09:52,917 --> 00:09:53,503 Is that correct? 130 00:09:53,503 --> 00:09:53,973 true. 131 00:09:53,973 --> 00:09:55,184 Yes, that's going on too. 132 00:09:55,184 --> 00:09:57,635 That one ends on July 14th. 133 00:09:58,076 --> 00:10:02,118 That one's cleared its threshold by a much safer margin. 134 00:10:02,118 --> 00:10:03,849 You can still sign it for safety. 135 00:10:03,849 --> 00:10:07,261 Yeah, it's like down below on that screenshot there at the bottom. 136 00:10:07,261 --> 00:10:11,323 ah yeah, it says sign the UK petition. 137 00:10:11,483 --> 00:10:13,744 That one is much iffier. 138 00:10:13,744 --> 00:10:16,346 Like, I'm not promising anything for the... 139 00:10:16,346 --> 00:10:19,227 The only thing I'm promising from that one is answers. 140 00:10:19,268 --> 00:10:22,439 Because that's one thing about this practice. 141 00:10:22,493 --> 00:10:28,235 that I described, you where they sell you the game, don't tell you when they're going to shut down, shut down later and keep your money. 142 00:10:28,516 --> 00:10:32,017 That more or less is nailed down in the United States. 143 00:10:32,457 --> 00:10:39,980 But in several other countries, basically EU ones, Australia, and to some extent the UK, it's not clear. 144 00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:45,263 This is a real great area in the law where the laws were never written for this kind of situation. 145 00:10:45,263 --> 00:10:51,153 I've made the analogy to like when Uber first came on the scene, know, governments weren't sure if this was 146 00:10:51,153 --> 00:10:54,285 a taxi service or are these employees or contractors? 147 00:10:54,285 --> 00:10:56,917 It's like the laws just weren't made for it. 148 00:10:56,917 --> 00:11:03,242 It's similar in games, which is one of the reasons this initiative I think has so much teeth to it. 149 00:11:03,242 --> 00:11:13,209 Because we're coming in in the middle of this confusion about what the law is and say, hey, can we just have some basic consumer rights on this to not have our purchases taken 150 00:11:13,209 --> 00:11:13,780 from us? 151 00:11:13,780 --> 00:11:14,387 Mm. 152 00:11:14,387 --> 00:11:17,319 Yes, so I do have one question though. 153 00:11:17,319 --> 00:11:26,880 I believe one of the solutions you proposed was, of course, companies implementing end-of-life policies, correct? 154 00:11:26,934 --> 00:11:31,586 Yeah, yeah, here's where we start getting into the nuance a bit. 155 00:11:31,586 --> 00:11:35,468 Because, well, one thing, yeah, that's one thing I should mention. 156 00:11:35,468 --> 00:11:37,168 This is not retroactive. 157 00:11:37,168 --> 00:11:44,051 So if this were to pass, it doesn't mean every game that ever came out would be under these laws, because that would be kind of chaos. 158 00:11:44,051 --> 00:11:46,592 And it's not even an option anyway. 159 00:11:47,733 --> 00:11:56,016 But, so this would start protecting game, if it passed, start protecting games from some point in the future onward, sort of break the cycle of this happening. 160 00:11:58,421 --> 00:12:09,205 the end of life plans, it's actually worded kind of carefully because we're not specifically saying, okay, you need to give us the server binaries at end of life, or you 161 00:12:09,205 --> 00:12:10,866 need to give us the source code or something. 162 00:12:10,866 --> 00:12:19,249 Because if we were to do that, then that could run afoul of copyright laws because they're saying, wait, you're demanding their intellectual property, you can't do that. 163 00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:25,196 So what we're doing is instead asking for, once they shut it down and support, 164 00:12:25,196 --> 00:12:32,944 that they need to leave the game in a reasonably working state without having to connect to the publisher or affiliated parties. 165 00:12:32,944 --> 00:12:34,756 So that does two things. 166 00:12:34,756 --> 00:12:39,310 It leaves a lot of flexibility to the publisher how they want to deal with this. 167 00:12:39,691 --> 00:12:48,441 And two, since it's not specifically asking for any individual intellectual property, it keeps us on the safe side of copyright laws. 168 00:12:48,441 --> 00:12:57,138 And, well, I guess the other thing is, realistically, they probably would release server binaries or a modified version of it. 169 00:12:57,138 --> 00:13:02,051 But since we're not specifying exactly what they do, that gives a... 170 00:13:02,051 --> 00:13:04,193 It lets this work, essentially. 171 00:13:04,254 --> 00:13:04,754 Right. 172 00:13:04,754 --> 00:13:09,198 Like keeping it more open ended is going to make it easier to pass and then maybe fine tune things later. 173 00:13:09,198 --> 00:13:12,110 um what about games? 174 00:13:12,110 --> 00:13:22,489 Let's say if World of Warcraft went down, how would you make something like that accessible, like offline when it is fundamentally an online game? 175 00:13:22,489 --> 00:13:31,256 And would it be because my thing is if they released like server packages or something like that, make it so you could run your own server. 176 00:13:31,256 --> 00:13:32,717 um 177 00:13:32,717 --> 00:13:44,272 You don't have to necessarily release the source code, but releasing the, even the binary, don't know if would really uh violate any copyright um if they can run their own servers. 178 00:13:44,272 --> 00:13:48,704 But I'm curious what your take on something like that is. 179 00:13:48,704 --> 00:13:51,625 How would World of Warcraft work if that was to go down? 180 00:13:51,995 --> 00:13:55,815 World of Warcraft is complicated in at least two ways. 181 00:13:55,955 --> 00:14:06,155 One, we're going to try, but we're probably going to fail on trying to get protections for games that are a subscription service like that. 182 00:14:06,235 --> 00:14:13,935 The reason being is that more or less falls under a service under consumer law because you're told exactly when it ends. 183 00:14:13,935 --> 00:14:18,035 You pay for 30 days or pay for six months, then your access is cut. 184 00:14:18,035 --> 00:14:21,699 Well, that's how normal services work, know, stuff like Netflix or... 185 00:14:21,699 --> 00:14:26,434 insurance, you know, they tell you exactly when your access ends. 186 00:14:26,434 --> 00:14:28,739 our only argument for world of war. 187 00:14:28,822 --> 00:14:29,843 Yeah, go ahead. 188 00:14:30,972 --> 00:14:39,449 fundamentally buy the game first off, even though they do like to put in the terms and service that you're renting oftentimes nowadays, but you are buying a game and then you're 189 00:14:39,449 --> 00:14:41,201 buying access to servers. 190 00:14:41,201 --> 00:14:56,112 So I think um I'm curious if legally there's more uh ways that we could actually get something like uh a server binary, let's say at the end of the World of Warcraft just 191 00:14:56,112 --> 00:14:56,973 ends. 192 00:14:57,015 --> 00:14:59,042 so that we could run our own servers. 193 00:14:59,437 --> 00:15:12,530 My guess is if this were to go through, World of Warcraft would find some language to package the actual buying as just being like, uh, activation fee for the service or 194 00:15:12,530 --> 00:15:13,455 something like that. 195 00:15:13,455 --> 00:15:18,876 You know, I think that's something they could wiggle out of for that particular case. 196 00:15:19,117 --> 00:15:21,227 But what I was gonna say- yeah. 197 00:15:21,227 --> 00:15:28,348 I bet early, sorry, I keep on cutting you off, but I bet early games, I bet early games are not gonna have that same clause. 198 00:15:28,348 --> 00:15:36,700 So they can't make up new rules now, especially where I feel like the EU's definitely more uh consumer friendly. 199 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:47,853 I'm just curious, and I don't mean to get too much bogged down to some of the nuances and stuff, but uh I really do wanna see this movement succeed, but I also wanna see it bring 200 00:15:47,853 --> 00:15:48,823 about 201 00:15:49,442 --> 00:15:52,316 fundamental changes uh to the industry. 202 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:55,231 so that's why I'm asking some of these other questions. 203 00:15:55,231 --> 00:15:56,384 But yes, sorry, continue. 204 00:15:56,384 --> 00:15:58,745 as I said, it gets nuanced fast. 205 00:15:58,746 --> 00:16:03,409 So for the subscription fee, there's no cons... 206 00:16:03,409 --> 00:16:13,445 Well, that might be muddier with buying the game and then having the subscription fee, but I think they could end up rewarding it before the law went into effect that that's what it 207 00:16:13,445 --> 00:16:14,216 is. 208 00:16:14,216 --> 00:16:21,461 So they could kind of, you know, cross their T's and dot their I's prior to them being affected by it. 209 00:16:21,501 --> 00:16:24,983 But the reason I think we'll fail on those is because... 210 00:16:25,263 --> 00:16:28,846 Yeah, again, there's subscription fees, so they act like a regular service. 211 00:16:28,846 --> 00:16:33,329 So our only argument would basically be for cultural preservation. 212 00:16:33,409 --> 00:16:37,923 And the laws on that are far weaker than consumer rights laws. 213 00:16:37,923 --> 00:16:41,135 So that's why we've been pushing the consumer rights angle. 214 00:16:41,336 --> 00:16:45,338 But that said, there's not, well, there's some more to it. 215 00:16:45,599 --> 00:16:51,323 There's not that many players, I mean, not players, oh companies. 216 00:16:51,323 --> 00:16:54,683 that are running subscription-only games nowadays. 217 00:16:54,683 --> 00:17:02,503 It's kind of the old guard like that, like World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy XIV, I guess Yves online has some. 218 00:17:03,123 --> 00:17:13,243 because they tried that in the mid-2000s with everybody trying to get on board that train and almost all of them either died off or went free to play. 219 00:17:13,723 --> 00:17:21,123 So, we did a count lately, there could be more, but I think we only found about 13 games out of just hundreds. 220 00:17:21,217 --> 00:17:24,129 of online ones that were subscription only. 221 00:17:24,129 --> 00:17:30,012 So, if we can only save, you know, 97, 98 % of games, that's still a pretty big win. 222 00:17:30,533 --> 00:17:32,514 And there was something else you brought up. 223 00:17:32,514 --> 00:17:36,196 I should have written down notes about World of Warcraft with... 224 00:17:36,737 --> 00:17:41,940 Okay, yeah, you brought up the offline part. 225 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,619 Okay, for a game like World of Warcraft, I don't think offline would cut it. 226 00:17:46,619 --> 00:17:50,659 because that is advertised as online multiplayer. 227 00:17:50,659 --> 00:17:53,299 Let's say it was covered, for sake of argument. 228 00:17:53,739 --> 00:18:00,259 An offline solution wouldn't do it because it was advertised as multiplayer, being able to connect to other people. 229 00:18:00,259 --> 00:18:10,159 So if it's all offline, well, can, I mean, that's a hell of a lot better than killing off entirely, but that's still not really delivering what was advertised. 230 00:18:10,539 --> 00:18:16,207 So in that case, you would probably, you would need some form of 231 00:18:16,207 --> 00:18:21,355 private server functionality, I would think, where there's some way for people to connect to it. 232 00:18:21,355 --> 00:18:23,778 It just wouldn't be run by the publisher at that point. 233 00:18:23,778 --> 00:18:24,725 oh 234 00:18:24,725 --> 00:18:37,289 not to mention like if you if you made uh, like if publishers or or the developers like Changed world of warcraft to being like an offline game that would not be preserving the 235 00:18:37,289 --> 00:18:38,279 game itself, right? 236 00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:41,170 That would be a fundamentally different game at that point. 237 00:18:41,170 --> 00:18:49,903 So I I think like I think like having the private functionality or the private server functionality Like you were talking about ross is probably the best bet for an online game 238 00:18:49,903 --> 00:18:51,075 like that, right? 239 00:18:51,075 --> 00:18:52,735 Yeah, it depends on the game. 240 00:18:52,735 --> 00:19:01,578 I'm struggling to think of one offhand, but there probably are some because they usually get the DRM removed by end of life. 241 00:19:01,578 --> 00:19:07,600 let's say it was a single player only game, but that it still needed to connect online to run it. 242 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,208 For a game like that, offline would be sufficient because what are you missing out on really? 243 00:19:13,208 --> 00:19:18,955 I mean, it could be some minor things like, you know, news on the site or, you know, Twitch. 244 00:19:18,955 --> 00:19:19,983 uh 245 00:19:19,983 --> 00:19:23,489 bonus or something, but you you're getting the core funk. 246 00:19:23,489 --> 00:19:25,683 That's also why we put reasonably playable. 247 00:19:25,683 --> 00:19:29,579 We want to leave some wiggle room for all these scenarios here. 248 00:19:31,315 --> 00:19:40,334 So I should mention that uh WoW does have private servers, albeit Blizzard does like to take them down as they get really popular. 249 00:19:40,334 --> 00:19:51,055 Now I am curious if legislation could protect those private servers from being taken down because, you know, obviously they're not getting server binaries from Blizzard directly, 250 00:19:51,055 --> 00:19:53,037 they're reverse engineering things. 251 00:19:53,431 --> 00:19:55,016 Yeah, I was gonna mention this, yeah. 252 00:19:55,016 --> 00:19:55,867 I'm curious. 253 00:19:55,867 --> 00:19:57,467 Yeah, to the... 254 00:19:57,467 --> 00:19:58,367 I was looking at... 255 00:19:58,367 --> 00:20:01,067 Well, everything I said, I was looking at it more conceptually. 256 00:20:01,067 --> 00:20:05,227 In real world terms, World of Warcraft is already safe because of the... 257 00:20:05,227 --> 00:20:07,947 those private servers do exist, but... 258 00:20:07,947 --> 00:20:09,607 Yeah, to the best of my knowledge, well... 259 00:20:09,607 --> 00:20:11,687 Actually, I'm not sure how it works with the cop... 260 00:20:11,687 --> 00:20:17,747 If they were truly reverse engineered and contained no code that was leaked or stolen... 261 00:20:17,747 --> 00:20:20,787 It might depend on the jurisdiction as to how... 262 00:20:20,787 --> 00:20:22,707 above board that is or not. 263 00:20:22,787 --> 00:20:24,427 But, um... 264 00:20:24,725 --> 00:20:28,881 I think some of the emulators did have code that came from Blizzard and... 265 00:20:29,735 --> 00:20:33,588 It wouldn't necessarily protect those, uh, because... 266 00:20:34,015 --> 00:20:38,104 I would need more details as to how they were created, I guess. 267 00:20:38,104 --> 00:20:38,618 But... 268 00:20:38,618 --> 00:20:38,889 sense. 269 00:20:38,889 --> 00:20:41,746 Yeah, I think but sorry. 270 00:20:41,746 --> 00:20:42,868 Go ahead, James. 271 00:20:43,643 --> 00:20:53,001 with the private servers and reverse engineering, all they'd have to do also is uh sniff the packets and see what endpoints are, what they're doing and stuff and recreate it. 272 00:20:53,001 --> 00:21:06,191 would be, it's not easy, but I am, like, I do think there's a way to save it, but if the game goes offline and Blizzard does, you still have to use the client, but they remove it 273 00:21:06,191 --> 00:21:09,627 from the client, would you, do you think this would, 274 00:21:09,627 --> 00:21:19,718 ah Maybe save that to where you're like, hey, I have to always at least have access to it even though there's no servers But then I could put in my own server Do you think it would 275 00:21:19,718 --> 00:21:21,350 protect something like that? 276 00:21:22,056 --> 00:21:33,919 Well again, we're probably lose on the subscription game so in that particular case no, but if it did actually there's some nuance again where You said they have to keep the 277 00:21:33,919 --> 00:21:43,292 client up They would have to keep the client up for a reasonable amount of time for customers to grab a copy before they shut down So let's say let's say they want to end 278 00:21:43,292 --> 00:21:45,523 World of Warcraft and they say okay. 279 00:21:45,523 --> 00:21:50,704 Well, here's the client Here's like some server form that you can run 280 00:21:50,704 --> 00:21:52,105 You have 30 days to grab it. 281 00:21:52,105 --> 00:21:56,209 After that, we're shutting it all down, and we're never touching this again, and you're on your own. 282 00:21:56,370 --> 00:21:58,593 So at that point, it's onto the community. 283 00:21:58,593 --> 00:22:06,561 So as long as there's a reasonable chance, they wouldn't have to keep hosting it or make any updates, uh anything in the future at that point. 284 00:22:06,561 --> 00:22:09,614 They could absolve themselves of all liability. 285 00:22:09,704 --> 00:22:11,636 um, so 286 00:22:11,742 --> 00:22:19,022 what I would like to see is people to have access to it. 287 00:22:19,202 --> 00:22:23,762 obviously, for me, preservation is a big part of it. 288 00:22:23,762 --> 00:22:31,682 But even I think that would be a win to be able to grab the client and then still be able to use it if something like World of Warcraft, which I think one of the more or less 289 00:22:31,682 --> 00:22:33,753 likely to happen games. 290 00:22:33,753 --> 00:22:35,609 Yeah, sorry, high tech. 291 00:22:36,233 --> 00:22:38,853 So I do have one question. 292 00:22:38,853 --> 00:22:50,893 So to take it back to stop killing games, think one question I have is that one of the things you want is for companies to implement end-of-life plans, or at the very least 293 00:22:50,893 --> 00:22:52,173 mention it. 294 00:22:52,413 --> 00:22:54,673 So what's the stop of developer from... 295 00:22:54,673 --> 00:23:04,653 So because I think one of the main complaints with this is that you buy a game like The Crew and there's no indication that it's going to end anytime soon, no expiration date 296 00:23:04,653 --> 00:23:05,613 mentioned. 297 00:23:05,843 --> 00:23:08,965 But what if games just started having expiration dates? 298 00:23:08,965 --> 00:23:12,237 Like, oh, this game will last three years. 299 00:23:12,333 --> 00:23:13,797 And it's on the box. 300 00:23:13,797 --> 00:23:17,233 Expiration date, 2030. 301 00:23:17,868 --> 00:23:19,052 That's crazy. 302 00:23:19,052 --> 00:23:26,799 I'm not too worried about things going down that road because I think if there was an expiration date that would wake up a lot of customers. 303 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:30,482 Like if it said, like on the box, this game will end in three years. 304 00:23:30,482 --> 00:23:33,545 Plus companies don't want to have to go down that route. 305 00:23:33,545 --> 00:23:39,950 If the games of Smash hit, then that's going to hurt, then they want to keep it going well beyond that. 306 00:23:40,071 --> 00:23:45,745 Whereas, and plus having that expiration date is going to hurt sales from a psychological perspective. 307 00:23:46,209 --> 00:23:52,131 Whereas if it's a total flop, well then they don't want to keep spending money to run these servers. 308 00:23:52,131 --> 00:23:54,225 They want to shut down as soon as possible. 309 00:23:54,225 --> 00:24:00,669 So it becomes the path of least resistance to have an end of life plan if it's planned for from the beginning. 310 00:24:01,090 --> 00:24:03,382 That's why keep emphasizing it's not retroactive. 311 00:24:03,382 --> 00:24:11,297 This can range from easy to near impossible for existing games for trying to implement something like this. 312 00:24:11,297 --> 00:24:13,809 It all depends on how the game was set up. 313 00:24:13,906 --> 00:24:14,677 Yes. 314 00:24:14,677 --> 00:24:16,399 So, alright, I have a question. 315 00:24:16,399 --> 00:24:33,329 uh When it comes to console games, for example, if it's an online game, private servers, I guess it would be up to the developers to support it that way, or is the movement just 316 00:24:33,329 --> 00:24:35,253 focused on PC games at this point? 317 00:24:35,253 --> 00:24:41,407 No, would include console games. 318 00:24:41,707 --> 00:24:43,619 It's similar, but it gets muddier. 319 00:24:43,619 --> 00:24:47,912 And some of it would have to get resolved in the EU Commission itself. 320 00:24:47,912 --> 00:24:50,633 some possible options would be OK. 321 00:24:50,633 --> 00:25:01,651 Because I think the tricky part with consoles is if it's an online game and then the developer wants to shut it down, but then you still need to pay like Sony or Microsoft to 322 00:25:01,651 --> 00:25:03,542 have that internet access. 323 00:25:04,983 --> 00:25:15,866 I think, in general, it sort of shifts to whoever the last man standing is kind of keeping, kind of requiring you to go through them in order to run the game. 324 00:25:16,086 --> 00:25:27,290 So, let's say you had a game on Xbox or something, and the developer's like, all right, we're done with this, we're gonna shut it down, we're gonna make available, uh yeah, let's 325 00:25:27,290 --> 00:25:28,300 make it more complicated. 326 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:32,589 Let's say, okay, we're gonna, as our end of life plan, 327 00:25:32,589 --> 00:25:36,921 we're gonna release a server for you, but there's no way this server software can run on the Xbox. 328 00:25:36,921 --> 00:25:38,422 It's just too complicated. 329 00:25:38,422 --> 00:25:40,122 It's not meant for that. 330 00:25:40,223 --> 00:25:49,447 So what we're gonna do is you're gonna have like 30 days to download it, but we're gonna tell you what kind of hardware it can run on, and you're on your own for that. 331 00:25:49,447 --> 00:25:57,801 And it might patch the client on the console end to say like, okay, you can enter in an IP address or something, and that'll connect to it that way. 332 00:25:57,801 --> 00:25:58,561 So... 333 00:25:59,339 --> 00:26:05,812 Yeah, there might be more hoops to jump through for the customer at end of life in order to keep it working. 334 00:26:05,812 --> 00:26:09,083 Our main metric is that it's not impossible. 335 00:26:09,163 --> 00:26:18,947 But if you also have to pay Microsoft to even have an outward internet connection, it could be you can't run that game without continuing to pay to Microsoft. 336 00:26:18,947 --> 00:26:28,683 And then once Microsoft decides to end the Xbox, they have to give you some means to be able to connect your Xbox to the internet, to that IP address and not... 337 00:26:28,683 --> 00:26:29,905 interfere with that. 338 00:26:29,905 --> 00:26:34,651 So it kind of shifts depending on who's involved in the chain there. 339 00:26:34,665 --> 00:26:48,803 Yeah, I was going to mention, with the 360 shutting down, the Xbox Live support would, hypothetically in the future, you know, PlayStation 4 shuts down its PSN access, uh what's 340 00:26:48,803 --> 00:26:53,309 that going to look like in a world with your initiative here? 341 00:26:53,871 --> 00:26:55,611 that's another thing I left out. 342 00:26:55,611 --> 00:26:58,131 It kind of depends on when it happens. 343 00:26:58,971 --> 00:27:04,811 See, let's say this goes through and they say, know, okay, this law goes into effect 2028. 344 00:27:05,171 --> 00:27:10,571 One, I mean, for sure option would be if they're thinking, okay, there's no way we can comply with this. 345 00:27:10,571 --> 00:27:15,071 They might shut down the service by that date, but they were going to anyway. 346 00:27:15,071 --> 00:27:21,111 So it can move the timetable up on a few games, but it's not really changing the dynamic. 347 00:27:21,525 --> 00:27:30,042 Another option, depending on how this goes in the EU Commission is, say, okay, this is too radical to just jump in like this, even at a date. 348 00:27:30,042 --> 00:27:35,165 What we're gonna do, we're gonna grandfather in every existing game right now. 349 00:27:35,165 --> 00:27:43,211 And that only games that start being sold, so yeah, if you're already selling now, you're exempt for that game moving onward. 350 00:27:43,211 --> 00:27:48,475 But any new game that gets sold after that date, then the laws start applying to that. 351 00:27:48,557 --> 00:27:52,435 That would probably be what the industry would prefer if they have to comply with this. 352 00:27:52,435 --> 00:27:54,249 Right, I think that makes sense. 353 00:27:54,249 --> 00:28:04,213 I guess my question to reframe it would be, what if, like, PlayStation 6, you know, ten years from its release, like, shuts down PSN? 354 00:28:04,213 --> 00:28:10,347 to, what they would have to do, you have a PlayStation 6 game that required their servers to run it. 355 00:28:10,347 --> 00:28:26,573 Once they're ready to shut it down, for the games that you bought, I guess if it was, Sony would have to remove the parts that interfere with you running that game in some form. 356 00:28:26,573 --> 00:28:30,815 So the responsibility would be kind of split depending on 357 00:28:31,179 --> 00:28:31,739 was in the way. 358 00:28:31,739 --> 00:28:37,824 The game developer, if they were shutting it down, they would have to give you some means to run it. 359 00:28:37,864 --> 00:28:47,211 And then Sony, you know, like a client or a patch client or server that may or may not run on the PlayStation, that sort of thing. 360 00:28:47,671 --> 00:28:56,898 And Sony would have to basically remove whatever DRM or checks they had that would interfere with you connecting to that kind of end of life build. 361 00:28:57,299 --> 00:28:58,139 So... 362 00:28:58,553 --> 00:29:02,049 It could be a dual process, but that's the way I would envision it working. 363 00:29:02,049 --> 00:29:05,189 Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. 364 00:29:05,829 --> 00:29:17,649 You know, I go back and play my 360 a lot and, you know, you boot up a game that like has Xbox Live leaderboards or something and it is constantly just prompting you to like 365 00:29:17,649 --> 00:29:21,689 connect to Xbox Live, you know, and it's like that doesn't exist anymore. 366 00:29:22,169 --> 00:29:28,707 So it would be cool if this legislation were to address those nag screens and stuff too. 367 00:29:28,707 --> 00:29:35,687 the bad news is, as long as you can get in that game and play it reasonably, you might still get nacked. 368 00:29:35,687 --> 00:29:37,247 I have to warn you. 369 00:29:37,247 --> 00:29:38,367 That's the... 370 00:29:38,367 --> 00:29:42,067 Because we're kind of looking at like the core way it was advertised. 371 00:29:42,067 --> 00:29:46,587 So, you know, if it's a driving game, you need to be able to get in, drive around, have races. 372 00:29:46,587 --> 00:29:55,047 If it's a shooter, you need to be able to shoot at things and have, if it's multiplayer, it'd be possible for people to connect to you. 373 00:29:55,047 --> 00:29:57,307 It can jettison a whole lot of... 374 00:29:57,367 --> 00:30:01,809 That's something else I should mention, especially if uh technical people are watching. 375 00:30:01,809 --> 00:30:16,555 It can jettison a whole lot of ex- A lot of the complexity and cost for many of these online games is related to like kind of microservices that are typically for more for 376 00:30:16,555 --> 00:30:25,443 either running this as a business that's being supported and monitored or that's for scaling this so that up to 10 million people 377 00:30:25,443 --> 00:30:28,263 could play simultaneously through different servers. 378 00:30:28,343 --> 00:30:32,883 Whereas we don't really need almost any of it at end of life. 379 00:30:33,083 --> 00:30:36,143 let's see some examples. 380 00:30:36,143 --> 00:30:38,423 If I didn't screw up my notes. 381 00:30:38,423 --> 00:30:40,443 Well, I can remember some off the of my head. 382 00:30:40,443 --> 00:30:41,563 Oh yeah, here we go. 383 00:30:41,563 --> 00:30:45,103 So like cross-region saves, that could be gone. 384 00:30:45,103 --> 00:30:47,023 Anti-cheat, that could be gone. 385 00:30:47,023 --> 00:30:54,797 Payments data, analytics, measures to have 99 % server uptime, crash reports, voice chats, failover. 386 00:30:54,797 --> 00:31:01,232 So they can just rip all of that out for the end of life bill because yeah, there could be cheaters on it. 387 00:31:01,232 --> 00:31:02,894 You're playing an unsupported game. 388 00:31:02,894 --> 00:31:04,485 That's how it works, you know? 389 00:31:04,485 --> 00:31:14,993 And the community, as long as it can kind of run reasonably, especially if you have people connecting that you trust, you know, that's kind of the standard there. 390 00:31:15,313 --> 00:31:27,422 So if so here's an interesting thought I just had if a game like Call of Duty that has an online component and a single-player component would they be able to just uh Jettison the 391 00:31:27,422 --> 00:31:37,186 multiplayer and just have the single-player available Okay, right Okay 392 00:31:37,186 --> 00:31:39,369 component for some people. 393 00:31:39,603 --> 00:31:43,995 Do you see developers re-implementing LAN connectivity? 394 00:31:43,995 --> 00:31:54,001 Kind like how you would do in Quake 3 back in the old days, or maybe even server browsers like TF2. 395 00:31:54,001 --> 00:31:56,722 TF2 is practically dead. 396 00:31:56,722 --> 00:32:00,924 It's not technically dead, but you can still connect to TF2 servers. 397 00:32:01,805 --> 00:32:02,809 Run by people. 398 00:32:02,809 --> 00:32:04,420 technically dead counts for us. 399 00:32:04,420 --> 00:32:13,564 uh I don't think we would see, it might be a few companies, I don't think we would see a resurgence. 400 00:32:13,784 --> 00:32:22,768 That's another aspect of this is that upfront for their business models, none of this interferes with it while they're supporting the game. 401 00:32:22,768 --> 00:32:29,471 So they can structure it however they want, but they really should be having an end of life plan in the background. 402 00:32:29,471 --> 00:32:30,351 So... 403 00:32:30,379 --> 00:32:36,602 And there are multiple reasons why companies do want to have everybody connect to a server they control. 404 00:32:36,602 --> 00:32:39,604 They can kind of control anti-cheat more. 405 00:32:39,604 --> 00:32:49,329 I think the number one reason is so they can, you know, sell more microtransactions because if you can just run a private server with all those microtransactions enabled that 406 00:32:49,329 --> 00:32:50,630 undercuts their economy. 407 00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:56,673 um But they can have updates to make sure everybody's on the same build. 408 00:32:56,673 --> 00:33:00,215 They can do it, you know, makes bug checking easier. 409 00:33:00,623 --> 00:33:03,896 It's absolutely an anti-piracy prevention technique. 410 00:33:03,896 --> 00:33:06,087 So there are several reasons to have that. 411 00:33:06,087 --> 00:33:09,300 So we're trying to make this as light touch as we can. 412 00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:16,555 That it's only after they're all done, they've sold everything they're going to sell to it, that's when they need to implement something. 413 00:33:16,555 --> 00:33:22,599 So they could run it 20 years and not have to do any of this if the game's still successful. 414 00:33:22,963 --> 00:33:23,654 Fair enough. 415 00:33:23,654 --> 00:33:34,224 What about a game like Destiny, where they have so many expansions that kind of uh make the older versions obsolete? 416 00:33:34,285 --> 00:33:41,613 That's another muddy territory that I think would have to wait for it to get to the EU Commission. 417 00:33:41,613 --> 00:33:49,111 Yeah, that one's kind of a mess because they vaulted almost all the content from some of the DLCs. 418 00:33:49,149 --> 00:33:50,406 yeah they did. 419 00:33:51,073 --> 00:33:54,335 That, yeah, see that one's weird because... 420 00:33:54,335 --> 00:33:57,187 Yeah, that one's a mess. 421 00:33:58,408 --> 00:34:09,095 Because if you bought those DLCs and you can show that it's almost all gone, that might be a valid complaint that they can't just vault it the way they do unless they're giving you 422 00:34:09,095 --> 00:34:11,496 a date when it's gonna come back, maybe? 423 00:34:12,063 --> 00:34:12,770 Or... 424 00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:14,558 I don't know, but I guess on the... 425 00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:17,661 an easier version of that would be... 426 00:34:17,661 --> 00:34:18,502 let's say... 427 00:34:18,502 --> 00:34:20,763 when we mentioned World of Warcraft. 428 00:34:21,027 --> 00:34:25,107 You know, 1.0 of World of Warcraft is very different than what it is now. 429 00:34:25,107 --> 00:34:28,187 And they kind of change things as they go through it. 430 00:34:28,187 --> 00:34:30,427 There several games that are like that. 431 00:34:30,467 --> 00:34:33,267 We're not ne- Yeah, go ahead. 432 00:34:34,468 --> 00:34:41,623 like World of Warcraft does have um retroactive uh or like they've gone back in the time, right? 433 00:34:41,623 --> 00:34:43,855 And they've re-released World of Warcraft Classic. 434 00:34:43,855 --> 00:34:48,638 so um it's definitely doable. 435 00:34:48,638 --> 00:34:56,504 Destiny 2, definitely think could just, um they have patches and stuff like that that they could probably reverse. 436 00:34:56,504 --> 00:34:58,265 um 437 00:34:58,325 --> 00:35:07,553 So it'd be interesting, the company probably doesn't wanna deal with it, and so they're gonna say it's not possible, but I'm really curious to see where that goes. 438 00:35:07,553 --> 00:35:16,767 lawsuit against that author that claimed that Bungie plagiarized their story, apparently Bungie doesn't have a playable build of their old shit. 439 00:35:17,027 --> 00:35:19,008 it's kind of a... 440 00:35:19,008 --> 00:35:19,758 I don't believe it either. 441 00:35:19,758 --> 00:35:21,220 I don't 442 00:35:21,220 --> 00:35:28,283 these companies to say, I guarantee their legal team said stuff like that just to make it so they didn't have to deal with anything. 443 00:35:28,283 --> 00:35:42,688 um I bet you it would be, but now in the 90s when we didn't have, um because there's a lot of different types of repository and like, um what is it? 444 00:35:43,629 --> 00:35:44,679 Like Git. 445 00:35:44,705 --> 00:35:48,569 um But there's a couple of different ones for uh games. 446 00:35:49,571 --> 00:35:55,078 Unless they purge their logs, which is crazy, ah you could go back. 447 00:35:55,078 --> 00:36:03,263 um Sorry, that's just really one where I'm just really, as a developer myself, I don't believe them in any aspect. 448 00:36:03,263 --> 00:36:05,179 Yeah, I don't believe it either. 449 00:36:05,282 --> 00:36:14,497 think the reason they didn't do that is because once the public sees that they can have this content working, that's going to be an uproar for them to bring it back. 450 00:36:14,658 --> 00:36:16,881 And it's easier just to point. 451 00:36:17,784 --> 00:36:18,178 yeah. 452 00:36:18,178 --> 00:36:18,696 oh 453 00:36:18,696 --> 00:36:24,565 could be a monetization aspect even if they really wanted to like World of Warcraft Classic did. 454 00:36:24,565 --> 00:36:26,437 But yeah, sorry, continue. 455 00:36:26,437 --> 00:36:37,823 the simplest answer for something like Destiny is for every, like, uh thing that a customer gets to buy, they just have to have, like, an end of life for that product, 456 00:36:37,823 --> 00:36:38,464 right? 457 00:36:38,464 --> 00:36:50,490 Which, I don't know exactly how the monetization worked with DLC or whatever the story content for Destiny was, but, like, it just, it doesn't make sense to me that they could 458 00:36:50,490 --> 00:36:55,571 just sell you something and then change it over time and then take it away from you. 459 00:36:55,571 --> 00:37:04,976 Yeah, that's one where we would kind of see how it went, I think, because there's, it's like, it's a spectrum. 460 00:37:05,056 --> 00:37:13,741 Because on one hand, it could be an update just leads to like some balance tweaks and everybody's and people might be screaming for the previous one, they liked it better, but 461 00:37:13,741 --> 00:37:15,792 it's like, well, you're still kind of getting the game. 462 00:37:15,792 --> 00:37:21,265 But there's other instances where they just remove levels and maps and stories. 463 00:37:21,265 --> 00:37:25,227 So it's like, well, okay, you really are being deprived at that point. 464 00:37:25,523 --> 00:37:32,450 So we're not going to be real hard about pushing like which version has to be available. 465 00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:36,284 But again, it kind of comes to that reasonably playable aspect again. 466 00:37:36,284 --> 00:37:45,773 If you do have the, you know, a DLC effectively removed, then you have a much stronger case reporting that to a consumer protection agency. 467 00:37:45,773 --> 00:37:48,086 And they can say, yeah, you removed this from them. 468 00:37:48,086 --> 00:37:49,587 So we're going to fine you. 469 00:37:49,649 --> 00:37:50,305 Yes. 470 00:37:50,305 --> 00:37:56,565 So I do have an important question I've been wanting to ask about this and this leads into it. 471 00:37:56,625 --> 00:38:08,305 Do you think it is more important to focus on this overarching goal than it is to go after these individual cases that we've been kind of bringing up? 472 00:38:08,625 --> 00:38:14,965 Where do you think even bringing that stuff up for this case would hurt it? 473 00:38:14,965 --> 00:38:18,296 Like if we keep on like counting, oh, World of Warcraft needs to work. 474 00:38:18,296 --> 00:38:25,741 at the end of life, do you think focusing on that type of stuff will hurt the movement more than just like a broad aspect? 475 00:38:25,741 --> 00:38:40,312 Because I do think focusing on the broadness is worthwhile, but I do think uh once, let's say, laws are passed and stuff like that, or we have like a really good end of life plan 476 00:38:40,312 --> 00:38:46,536 for a broad ranging of games, then just focus on later to... 477 00:38:46,606 --> 00:38:50,290 go after some of these specific cases like Destiny. 478 00:38:50,290 --> 00:38:52,090 I don't think that... 479 00:38:52,090 --> 00:38:56,390 Okay, for the initiative, it's not going to go after any specific company. 480 00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:57,290 They are... 481 00:38:57,290 --> 00:38:59,230 It's going to be a broad practice. 482 00:38:59,230 --> 00:39:02,630 And what might happen is they would bring up... 483 00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:09,250 examples of the way a game might go, like World of Warcraft, and see, okay, well, how would this fit under it? 484 00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:11,170 Or how would a game like this fit under it? 485 00:39:11,170 --> 00:39:18,530 For the specific example, that's something we have underway and it's been going on for over a year now with the crew. 486 00:39:19,248 --> 00:39:29,778 The reason I never really did too much on this aside from try to raise awareness was because there wasn't really a good Avenue to take action on this prior to last year. 487 00:39:29,778 --> 00:39:42,695 See the crew was almost Not the perfect but almost perfect test case for this for a few reasons One is that it was semi big there were up to 12 million owners according to 488 00:39:42,695 --> 00:39:45,926 Ubisoft So that meant there were a lot of people still 489 00:39:46,170 --> 00:39:51,635 standing around with receipts that they could send to a consumer protection agency as proof that they bought it. 490 00:39:51,635 --> 00:39:55,978 So we we were able to get thousands of complaints in that way so it can get their attention. 491 00:39:56,078 --> 00:40:03,124 The second is that the, what we're talking about here is that it's what I call a clean kill. 492 00:40:03,144 --> 00:40:05,727 There was no ambiguity about what happened here. 493 00:40:05,727 --> 00:40:12,132 It's not like the DLC went down, but then some of the games still works or the multiplayer went down, but the single player works. 494 00:40:12,132 --> 00:40:14,918 No, every single person who had it 495 00:40:14,918 --> 00:40:18,599 just had it completely removed from their libraries in any capacity. 496 00:40:18,599 --> 00:40:20,078 It was just dead. 497 00:40:20,078 --> 00:40:22,820 And there was no compensation given. 498 00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:27,202 Because uh Overwatch was a much bigger game that got shut down. 499 00:40:27,202 --> 00:40:35,181 But then they released Overwatch 2 for free, and then they gave benefits, like with skins or whatever, to people who did own Overwatch 1. 500 00:40:35,181 --> 00:40:41,986 So an agency might look at that and thought, well, they're compensating the owners, so we're just not going to worry about that. 501 00:40:42,126 --> 00:40:42,706 I would have... 502 00:40:42,706 --> 00:40:45,618 They would've killed me to like lose on a technicality like that. 503 00:40:45,618 --> 00:40:47,989 I want it just black and white. 504 00:40:47,989 --> 00:40:49,260 Is this legal or not? 505 00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:51,010 You know, not have these little... 506 00:40:51,331 --> 00:40:53,452 You know, in-between issues there. 507 00:40:53,652 --> 00:40:55,393 And the final reason... 508 00:40:55,553 --> 00:40:56,513 Okay. 509 00:40:57,006 --> 00:40:57,784 Okay, just quick. 510 00:40:57,784 --> 00:40:59,555 The final reason was that this was in... 511 00:40:59,555 --> 00:41:01,376 Ubisoft is in France. 512 00:41:01,376 --> 00:41:05,478 Which means it is subject to all kinds of consumer protection laws. 513 00:41:05,479 --> 00:41:08,200 Both for the EU and France. 514 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,982 stuff that wouldn't fly necessarily in the US or get muddied. 515 00:41:12,122 --> 00:41:14,349 It's just as clear as day there. 516 00:41:14,349 --> 00:41:29,889 Yeah, and so I would love to see eventually, and that's why I ask, is like, I wanna see this past where games like The Crew, that type of thing does not happen again. 517 00:41:29,889 --> 00:41:41,708 But I would like to see more, honestly, I'd like to see more legislation on stuff like Destiny 2, where they have to have snapshots. 518 00:41:41,708 --> 00:41:46,990 uh of each time they do uh a release of DLC, which they could do. 519 00:41:46,990 --> 00:41:48,371 And it doesn't have to be retroactive. 520 00:41:48,371 --> 00:41:57,055 It could be like, hey, any games in the future, just make sure you save a copy of the game and that there's some type of client that can activate it. 521 00:41:57,215 --> 00:42:00,236 With planning, it does not take a whole lot to do this type of thing. 522 00:42:00,236 --> 00:42:08,680 um Do you think that'd be a movement that would be reasonable later on after something like this uh is successful? 523 00:42:09,312 --> 00:42:10,743 Yeah, I think so. 524 00:42:10,743 --> 00:42:13,284 oh Two thoughts of this. 525 00:42:13,284 --> 00:42:18,447 One is that right now, it's unclear if we have any rights whatsoever. 526 00:42:18,447 --> 00:42:22,910 So, you we can answer this stuff and they can say, yeah, whatever, we'll turn off the game, keeping your money. 527 00:42:22,910 --> 00:42:28,313 So we need, we need like a beachhead of rights first to just say, no, that's beyond the pale. 528 00:42:28,313 --> 00:42:29,434 This is protected. 529 00:42:29,434 --> 00:42:37,738 Then after that point, then you start getting into more nuanced issues like Destiny where you can point to obvious stuff they've removed. 530 00:42:38,430 --> 00:42:51,289 Even that gets a little thorny because you know how many there's some games that have just hundreds of individual updates like okay This is 1.03 a this is 1.03 1 1 a and then So do 531 00:42:51,289 --> 00:43:01,326 they need to keep and let's say the games huge, you know, well destiny is pretty big It's like what 100 gigs now or something or 80 gigs so 532 00:43:01,765 --> 00:43:13,748 I'm usually saying snapshots as in like, if there's a major change like a DLC, or I'm not talking about uh like individual updates, let's say, we fixed a couple of things here and 533 00:43:13,748 --> 00:43:14,349 there. 534 00:43:14,349 --> 00:43:24,231 I know some people are gonna argue, some gamers are gonna want like some old hack they were able to do a couple of versions back in some of these games, but fundamental changes 535 00:43:24,231 --> 00:43:29,046 to the game and snapshots, they guarantee the companies already have that type of stuff. 536 00:43:29,046 --> 00:43:38,120 but making sure that it is unlockable would be, I think, a huge win, but it definitely is something we don't need to talk about because it is down the road kind of stuff. 537 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:44,740 There's still lot of stuff to get over, a lot of hurdles to get over before we get to that. 538 00:43:45,174 --> 00:43:54,497 that's a lot easier when you do have clear markers, like an expansion for World of Warcraft or a DLC for Destiny. 539 00:43:54,617 --> 00:44:04,630 The problem is you're going to have games that are just kind of this ongoing fluid update that, yeah, things do change over time, but where exactly was the big change and where 540 00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:06,820 does this count and that sort of thing. 541 00:44:06,820 --> 00:44:12,722 So I mean, guess the way you could legislate that would be by time intervals maybe, like every year. 542 00:44:12,738 --> 00:44:16,948 they have to have like some build of it or, but. 543 00:44:16,948 --> 00:44:19,591 It would be nice, but it's definitely one of those things. 544 00:44:19,591 --> 00:44:24,626 It's a nicety and there's a lot of other big targets before that. 545 00:44:24,628 --> 00:44:35,702 perfect solution, which is rare unfortunately, would be, I think it's like what oh Deep Rock Galactic did, where they have this option where you can just hit a mode and go to 546 00:44:35,702 --> 00:44:41,003 their previous expansions, like as if you were going back in time for years or something. 547 00:44:41,003 --> 00:44:50,456 But I can understand if developers don't necessarily want to do that, but I'm all for what you're describing, but we need a 548 00:44:50,456 --> 00:44:51,046 it. 549 00:44:51,446 --> 00:45:01,791 Yeah, we need a foundation first to say that before you worry about different versions, we need to establish that they can't just take away the entire game at any time for no 550 00:45:01,791 --> 00:45:03,122 reason, you know. 551 00:45:03,318 --> 00:45:14,906 Yeah, I think it would make sense if there was like, you know, if developers just wanted to be ethical, which I find hilarious to say, they could um just create snapshots of the 552 00:45:14,906 --> 00:45:23,603 game at certain intervals, like you were saying, James, and then use like Steam's beta thing that's built into it now. 553 00:45:23,603 --> 00:45:29,507 And there's an API that lets the game opt into different versions of betas. 554 00:45:29,507 --> 00:45:30,487 So you can... 555 00:45:30,487 --> 00:45:31,188 um 556 00:45:31,188 --> 00:45:33,690 kind of just roll back to different snapshots. 557 00:45:34,551 --> 00:45:47,624 And if your legislation goes through, Ross, I think that it might be smart for uh platform holders like PlayStation and Xbox and even Nintendo to offer a similar feature, right? 558 00:45:48,523 --> 00:45:59,375 Yeah, that's, yeah, we're kind of straying into stuff that sounds like a great idea, but somebody else is gonna have to pick up after we get a victory on that. 559 00:45:59,375 --> 00:46:03,854 Like, it's because, it's been hard enough pushing this, you know? 560 00:46:03,854 --> 00:46:10,684 love I love your movement and I'm thinking it like practically down the road how it can actually be implemented so I understand 561 00:46:10,684 --> 00:46:21,024 yeah, so last time we checked the last week when we did the podcast, we checked the we checked the website and I think it was at like 51 % James, am I correct? 562 00:46:21,964 --> 00:46:29,764 But yeah, obviously now it's at 100 and like over a million and a million and close to 1.2 million actually. 563 00:46:29,984 --> 00:46:36,724 And we've noticed that we've gotten some very you've gotten some very powerful allies for your movement. 564 00:46:36,884 --> 00:46:39,078 And I wonder how much 565 00:46:39,078 --> 00:46:43,002 of it came from their fan bases going over there. 566 00:46:43,002 --> 00:46:46,362 because I know none of these guys are- 567 00:46:46,752 --> 00:46:48,613 it's hard to say, but a significant amount. 568 00:46:48,613 --> 00:46:53,017 mean, we were kind of in a lull for a long time. 569 00:46:53,398 --> 00:47:00,307 the biggest, one of the biggest things where it started ticking up again was when Moist Critical started covering it. 570 00:47:00,307 --> 00:47:06,289 then, yeah, I think at least about 5 % of his audience translated to about that many views. 571 00:47:06,289 --> 00:47:08,140 I mean, about the many signatures. 572 00:47:08,429 --> 00:47:09,411 That's crazy. 573 00:47:09,411 --> 00:47:13,509 There's PewDiePie also who's, he's a European citizen, isn't he? 574 00:47:13,509 --> 00:47:15,926 So, yeah, or. 575 00:47:15,926 --> 00:47:20,350 I think he lives in Japan now, but he is from- he was from Europe. 576 00:47:21,212 --> 00:47:21,804 Yeah. 577 00:47:21,804 --> 00:47:23,625 not denaturalized from Europe, right? 578 00:47:23,625 --> 00:47:26,408 I think he's still, sorry, not to get into. 579 00:47:26,718 --> 00:47:31,210 it's less about the nationality of who's covering it and about their audience, you know? 580 00:47:31,210 --> 00:47:39,064 That's, well, I'm kind of thinking that someone like PewDiePie would have a probably pretty big European audience just because he's from Europe. 581 00:47:39,064 --> 00:47:41,346 But yeah, that's why I was kind of going with that. 582 00:47:41,346 --> 00:47:42,986 And so that'd be a big deal. 583 00:47:43,467 --> 00:47:48,670 No, this is, I'm seeing it everywhere now on my new, like my YouTube newsfeed now. 584 00:47:48,670 --> 00:47:52,272 Everyone is promoting this. 585 00:47:52,272 --> 00:47:55,072 I can only think of really one. 586 00:47:55,072 --> 00:47:57,732 Well, actually, no, now we have two major opponents. 587 00:47:57,732 --> 00:48:00,092 First and foremost was Pirate Software. 588 00:48:00,312 --> 00:48:02,652 I don't know if you... 589 00:48:02,652 --> 00:48:03,801 Yeah. 590 00:48:03,801 --> 00:48:04,464 if you want. 591 00:48:04,464 --> 00:48:06,841 I'm not trying to twist the knife on him, but... 592 00:48:06,841 --> 00:48:11,607 yeah, yeah, don't worry man, we're not gonna- I have no ill will against him, personally speaking. 593 00:48:11,607 --> 00:48:15,049 I just don't agree with his take on stop killing games. 594 00:48:15,212 --> 00:48:18,456 But there was another major opponent that rose up too. 595 00:48:18,456 --> 00:48:22,226 VideoGamesEurope.eu So- m 596 00:48:22,226 --> 00:48:25,144 I plan to make a video on that, but I can discuss it. 597 00:48:25,144 --> 00:48:26,086 uh 598 00:48:26,433 --> 00:48:38,007 I am curious though, like if you could answer, maybe, cause I haven't looked into those sources too much, but if there's anything you wanna like uh talk about to maybe uh not 599 00:48:38,007 --> 00:48:45,880 discredit, but like to answer maybe some of their uh issues with the movement, maybe there's something you can. 600 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:46,950 Yeah, sure. 601 00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:49,041 I can give a preview of what I'm going to say. 602 00:48:49,041 --> 00:48:50,071 Let's see. 603 00:48:50,071 --> 00:48:52,332 I'm trying to pull up their exact... 604 00:48:52,332 --> 00:48:54,753 Ah, shoot. 605 00:48:54,793 --> 00:48:57,614 Well, I mean, I have my script, but OK, I'll try to... 606 00:48:57,614 --> 00:48:59,614 I don't have the exact link up in front of me. 607 00:48:59,614 --> 00:49:00,594 It'll make it easier. 608 00:49:00,594 --> 00:49:03,145 ah let's see. 609 00:49:03,145 --> 00:49:05,736 OK, so yeah, no, they had several things. 610 00:49:05,736 --> 00:49:07,146 Because some of the stuff we agree... 611 00:49:07,146 --> 00:49:10,537 Yeah, their first sentence is, um... 612 00:49:11,178 --> 00:49:12,648 They're saying that... 613 00:49:12,648 --> 00:49:16,241 know, publishers must be able to discontinue online services. 614 00:49:16,241 --> 00:49:17,242 Yeah, we agree. 615 00:49:17,242 --> 00:49:18,893 You can shut them down whenever you want. 616 00:49:18,893 --> 00:49:20,604 So we're good there. 617 00:49:21,285 --> 00:49:22,546 Let's see. 618 00:49:23,307 --> 00:49:24,398 They are. 619 00:49:24,398 --> 00:49:25,258 Yeah. 620 00:49:25,258 --> 00:49:28,471 And they talk about giving fair notice for when they shut them down. 621 00:49:28,471 --> 00:49:33,635 Well, one, that might not be true, according to a German lawyer, WBS Legal for the crew. 622 00:49:33,635 --> 00:49:35,897 But second, that's irrelevant. 623 00:49:35,897 --> 00:49:36,978 We don't care. 624 00:49:37,254 --> 00:49:39,865 We're not arguing about how much notice you need to give people. 625 00:49:39,865 --> 00:49:42,936 We're arguing that you can't deprive them of their purchase. 626 00:49:43,426 --> 00:49:50,138 yeah, that's another thing that some people get hung up on is they might think we're asking for all these new intellectual property rights. 627 00:49:50,138 --> 00:49:51,699 We're actually not. 628 00:49:51,699 --> 00:50:03,262 What we're asking for is to prohibit taking away what's already been sold to the customer because they've been sold, you know, limited access to a working game. 629 00:50:03,498 --> 00:50:07,360 And but they have provisions that, we can terminate this at any time for any reason. 630 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,842 We're going after that provision saying that they can't do that. 631 00:50:12,763 --> 00:50:17,126 you have to sell the customer some rights just to even run the game. 632 00:50:17,126 --> 00:50:19,477 That's one thing I think people forget, you know? 633 00:50:19,477 --> 00:50:23,719 And when I say some rights, you know, you're not getting the rights to the franchise. 634 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:30,573 You're not getting the rights to resell copies of it or maybe even monetize a server, you know, if they prohibited that. 635 00:50:30,573 --> 00:50:32,744 We're agnostic on that. 636 00:50:32,936 --> 00:50:35,871 So it still leaves a whole lot of power. 637 00:50:35,871 --> 00:50:40,057 They just can't, you know, take away your purchase. 638 00:50:40,559 --> 00:50:42,568 But let's see, they gave... 639 00:50:42,568 --> 00:50:44,588 this is Netflix for games, right? 640 00:50:44,588 --> 00:50:52,308 Like, I'm not purchasing access to a streaming service that has thousands of games, even like Game Pass. 641 00:50:53,268 --> 00:50:59,068 If I'm spending 60, $70, I'm expecting a copy. 642 00:50:59,348 --> 00:51:03,858 Well, that, I mean, but the crew is, I'm going after crew and that was a little. 643 00:51:03,858 --> 00:51:06,098 is, you don't have to look at it like that. 644 00:51:06,098 --> 00:51:10,558 They're selling you access to the game and they're giving you no expiration date. 645 00:51:10,757 --> 00:51:15,498 And the terms that they give, they can terminate at any time for any reason. 646 00:51:15,678 --> 00:51:27,438 We got a quote from the EU Commission saying that actually could run afoul of, it's called Directive 9313 EEC, which protects consumers against unfair contracts. 647 00:51:27,438 --> 00:51:32,002 So if that term is unfair, saying like, okay, you can't just take it away for no reason, that's... 648 00:51:32,002 --> 00:51:33,263 Kind of ridiculous. 649 00:51:33,263 --> 00:51:35,764 Well then, long is your game expected to last? 650 00:51:35,764 --> 00:51:37,925 Well, they didn't give an expiration date. 651 00:51:37,925 --> 00:51:40,926 They might have put themselves on the hook for indefinitely. 652 00:51:40,926 --> 00:51:48,501 Now that's not realistic, so the only kind of way out of that is to have some sort of end of life build so they don't have to keep supporting it. 653 00:51:48,501 --> 00:51:59,069 funny story, you mentioned the crew because there is a lawsuit that's still going on in California, but two players allege that there is an expiration date that shipped with the 654 00:51:59,069 --> 00:52:02,520 code that they got for the crew and it says 2099. 655 00:52:02,940 --> 00:52:03,994 So. 656 00:52:03,994 --> 00:52:10,816 in fact, I may have had a hand in making them aware of that actually Yeah, we had nothing to do with the lawsuit. 657 00:52:10,816 --> 00:52:11,784 We didn't start it. 658 00:52:11,784 --> 00:52:22,189 I but I made a video reacting to a lawsuit as I think I think even if they win, it's gonna be a Pyrrhic victory It won't stop future games from being saved. 659 00:52:22,189 --> 00:52:27,751 But I said well since you're already doing it, you know Well here you might as well mention on the box. 660 00:52:27,751 --> 00:52:32,974 It says expires at you know January 31st or uh 661 00:52:32,974 --> 00:52:36,396 2099 because that might help them win. 662 00:52:36,396 --> 00:52:43,039 But the problem, the reason that won't save games is the lesson the industry will get from that is don't put that on the box. 663 00:52:43,039 --> 00:52:49,382 And that's a pretty solvable problem that will, but will lead to games still getting destroyed. 664 00:52:49,961 --> 00:53:01,485 I think you might be surprised in like, let's say the States, like the United States, like we could honestly see some pushback on some of these clauses in their terms of services 665 00:53:01,485 --> 00:53:18,132 and even to some copyrights because um we've had pushback, let's say in the labor force where uh you couldn't go work for, I don't, I shouldn't get too deep into that, but I'm 666 00:53:18,132 --> 00:53:19,372 curious. 667 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:26,771 To reframe all this, do you think a movement like this in America could uh take place? 668 00:53:26,932 --> 00:53:32,550 Or is we just really focused on the EU because it's just going to be easier? 669 00:53:32,856 --> 00:53:37,590 I think it's technically, it's technically not impossible. 670 00:53:37,590 --> 00:53:39,913 That's the way I look at it for the United States. 671 00:53:39,913 --> 00:53:46,439 Every lawyer I've talked to on this, the US lawyer, says that nothing less than an act of Congress is going to fix this. 672 00:53:46,439 --> 00:53:51,313 So yeah, if you know somebody with deep pockets who can lobby Congress, this is possible. 673 00:53:51,313 --> 00:53:57,669 But if you don't, I think you might as well buy a lottery ticket if you're feeling that lucky. 674 00:53:57,669 --> 00:53:59,330 Now the good news is, 675 00:53:59,418 --> 00:54:00,317 in the next four years. 676 00:54:00,317 --> 00:54:02,396 Let's just say that, not to get too political. 677 00:54:02,396 --> 00:54:03,087 But yeah, sorry. 678 00:54:03,087 --> 00:54:15,226 reason I'm so hell-bent on the EU, well also Australia, is that let's say this goes through and they have to start releasing end-of-life plans for games they sell in the 679 00:54:15,226 --> 00:54:16,437 European Union. 680 00:54:16,437 --> 00:54:26,604 Well, once that's happened, then they'll have already done the work for the end-of-life build, so they may as well roll them out globally because it would barely be any more 681 00:54:26,604 --> 00:54:30,076 effort and it would be much better PR than not doing that. 682 00:54:30,598 --> 00:54:42,666 We've seen this before or something similar Within Australia when they sued valve over not allowing refunds on Steam valve lost So rather than only allow Australians to refund the 683 00:54:42,666 --> 00:54:45,648 games They just rolled it out globally because they decide okay. 684 00:54:45,648 --> 00:54:50,512 We lost this It's not worth going through this in every country one by one. 685 00:54:50,512 --> 00:54:59,658 Let's just get it over with you know So I think it would become the path of least resistance to just so I think Americans would get almost all the benefits downstream from 686 00:54:59,658 --> 00:55:00,418 this 687 00:55:00,895 --> 00:55:16,191 we usually benefit from the EU greatly, like USB-C alone, I'm grateful for with iPhone, because of something, especially California really pushing a lot of stuff, it tends to 688 00:55:16,191 --> 00:55:20,153 trickle up um or at least there's protections in certain states. 689 00:55:20,153 --> 00:55:29,406 So I'm not a lawyer with all this stuff, but I am curious to see maybe this could even become. 690 00:55:29,502 --> 00:55:35,095 a state-based issue to where some states have more consumer protections. 691 00:55:35,095 --> 00:55:37,715 I'm not a lawyer, but I can address that part. 692 00:55:38,576 --> 00:55:40,127 I've talked to lawyers about this. 693 00:55:40,127 --> 00:55:47,380 In fact, we were pursuing something like this in Florida originally with one of them that where we thought we might be only the case going. 694 00:55:47,380 --> 00:55:59,855 But what he found in his legal research is that because United States law differs so much to the ULA, the end user license agreement, they often specify which state that any 695 00:55:59,855 --> 00:56:02,466 conflicts with them are going to be tried in, which is 696 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,432 typically California, sometimes Washington. 697 00:56:05,432 --> 00:56:11,097 So even if, so if you buy the game in, you know, Alabama or Florida or wherever, doesn't matter. 698 00:56:11,097 --> 00:56:16,742 If you want to go to court over this, you're going to California and then whatever their loss says goes. 699 00:56:16,742 --> 00:56:21,677 Now, if you're really optimistic, does California have a direct ballot initiative? 700 00:56:21,677 --> 00:56:22,719 That's a good question. 701 00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,211 None of us live in- none of us live in California. 702 00:56:25,211 --> 00:56:34,356 if you can get a bunch of typical voters who probably don't care about video games to care about this and get it on a ballot, that might be a back way to it. 703 00:56:34,356 --> 00:56:39,057 man, the odds are just, I see that as just 50 times harder than what I'm doing. 704 00:56:39,258 --> 00:56:40,158 So. 705 00:56:40,292 --> 00:56:40,656 I see it. 706 00:56:40,656 --> 00:56:46,716 think reframing it as owning your product that you, like at least owning partially the product that you buy. 707 00:56:46,716 --> 00:56:57,856 And I know that there has been a lot of, the people have talked about it here in the States, a lot about, well, if I'm going to buy something software, whatever it is, how do 708 00:56:57,856 --> 00:57:01,276 I not, I just have a license and they're starting to do that with hardware. 709 00:57:01,276 --> 00:57:08,401 So I'm curious if there is a way to get this through to at least offer. 710 00:57:08,401 --> 00:57:09,855 better protections for consumers. 711 00:57:09,855 --> 00:57:14,531 But, you know, think we don't need to get too deep into this because I think the EU is a gray star. 712 00:57:14,531 --> 00:57:20,919 Yeah, no, believe me, if I could have done things in the United States, it would have a lot easier because most of my audience is American. 713 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:25,886 So, but I just was not, we just had to go to where the openings were. 714 00:57:26,317 --> 00:57:29,169 No, yeah, I think getting awareness alone is helpful. 715 00:57:29,169 --> 00:57:30,741 Like it's a trickle down. 716 00:57:30,741 --> 00:57:43,501 Like eventually this could spread out to maybe being a bigger issue in the States, but especially let's say if the EU initiative doesn't, uh it works for the EU and some other 717 00:57:43,501 --> 00:57:47,014 countries, ah but doesn't work for the United States. 718 00:57:47,014 --> 00:57:51,027 It still sets a presidents and it still sets like expectations for people. 719 00:57:51,207 --> 00:57:53,810 I think the United States will be getting most of the benefits still. 720 00:57:53,810 --> 00:58:01,087 mean, not every last game, but 80, 90 % of what's getting destroyed now are those types of games. 721 00:58:01,087 --> 00:58:12,081 You know, uh I looked into your major opponents here, the video games Europe, and they're not, obviously, of course, they're not a legislative body. 722 00:58:12,081 --> 00:58:17,563 They are, in fact, a conglomerate of video game publishers, kind of like what we have in the US, the ESA. 723 00:58:18,384 --> 00:58:20,144 So let me read out all of your... 724 00:58:20,216 --> 00:58:23,624 and CD PROYECT is not on that list, and I wish they were. 725 00:58:23,624 --> 00:58:28,745 They're the ones that own GOG, you know, and have DRM-free stuff. 726 00:58:28,745 --> 00:58:30,516 Yes, so let's see who we have here. 727 00:58:30,516 --> 00:58:32,027 We have Activision Blizzard. 728 00:58:32,027 --> 00:58:36,631 uh These guys, AEPDV from Portugal. 729 00:58:36,631 --> 00:58:38,872 We have AVAVIA. 730 00:58:39,053 --> 00:58:40,584 Let's get to the good ones. 731 00:58:40,584 --> 00:58:45,537 We have Bandai Namco EA Embracer Epic Games. 732 00:58:45,727 --> 00:58:46,738 yeah, it's... 733 00:58:46,778 --> 00:58:47,489 James, do see that... 734 00:58:47,489 --> 00:58:52,983 Do see that triple the hamburger button up there on the top right? 735 00:58:52,983 --> 00:58:55,605 Oh, wait. 736 00:58:55,605 --> 00:58:56,635 Never mind that. 737 00:58:56,827 --> 00:58:57,506 You 738 00:58:57,506 --> 00:59:06,997 we have Microsoft, Netflix, Nintendo, Sega, Roblox. 739 00:59:06,997 --> 00:59:14,317 Oh, we haven't even talked about Roblox, that would be another, that'd be another, another can of worms open. 740 00:59:14,317 --> 00:59:22,836 Let's see, Sony, Square, Supercell, the guys that make Clash of Clans, course, Ubisoft, Take Two. 741 00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:24,791 WB Zenimax. 742 00:59:24,791 --> 00:59:26,082 You know, funny story. 743 00:59:26,082 --> 00:59:37,558 uh What I do find interesting is that I think even before we hit a million subs, a million subscriptions, I mean not subscriptions, sorry, a million signatures for your stop killing 744 00:59:37,558 --> 00:59:47,724 games movement, I think we already started to see some effects because we're starting to see more of these failed live service games implementing their own offline, uh their own 745 00:59:47,724 --> 00:59:50,926 end of life plans, like offline services like a... 746 00:59:51,098 --> 00:59:52,109 Multiverses. 747 00:59:52,109 --> 00:59:53,851 Have you heard of multiverses? 748 00:59:54,532 --> 00:59:56,013 Yeah, that... 749 00:59:56,855 --> 00:59:59,247 Yeah, so, I mean, those are totally play... 750 00:59:59,247 --> 01:00:00,959 That's totally playable offline. 751 01:00:00,959 --> 01:00:08,464 Yeah, granted, you can't play online against people, which is kind of unfortunate because that's kind of what it was billed as. 752 01:00:08,464 --> 01:00:10,822 It's still a hell of a lot better than Completely Dead. 753 01:00:10,822 --> 01:00:11,358 uh 754 01:00:11,358 --> 01:00:15,059 and also Redfall 2 is playable offline as well. 755 01:00:15,059 --> 01:00:21,133 That one's tricky though, because Redfall, believe still has De Nuvo DRM. 756 01:00:21,293 --> 01:00:23,635 So I don't know what's going on with Redfall. 757 01:00:23,635 --> 01:00:28,298 It could be in a few years, it shuts down and nobody can play it. 758 01:00:28,358 --> 01:00:32,031 Because if nobody removes the DRM before they end support. 759 01:00:32,031 --> 01:00:33,421 So I don't know about Redfall. 760 01:00:33,421 --> 01:00:34,622 That one's tricky. 761 01:00:35,184 --> 01:00:42,689 So I could see them removing Denuvo at some point because Denuvo is also in and of itself a subscription. 762 01:00:42,689 --> 01:00:47,753 Developers have to pay thousands of dollars to keep Denuvo up. 763 01:00:47,753 --> 01:01:00,431 if a game like Redfall isn't selling super well, then I think if they're cutting a bunch of people and stuff, which we'll talk about later, they're cutting corners everywhere, 764 01:01:00,431 --> 01:01:02,383 might as well cut out Denuvo or either too, right? 765 01:01:02,383 --> 01:01:04,684 I mean, what's the point at this point? 766 01:01:06,722 --> 01:01:14,270 It's shocking that they're still paying for that subscription for a game that probably doesn't make them any money. 767 01:01:14,270 --> 01:01:23,700 Even though I like the game, I even haven't bought it yet, but I do like the idea that there's offline support that I could potentially buy it one day, just for the heck of it. 768 01:01:23,821 --> 01:01:26,618 But, yeah. 769 01:01:26,618 --> 01:01:31,763 I'm honestly, I didn't even know it still, I didn't know it had Danube to begin with, much less still has Danube though. 770 01:01:31,763 --> 01:01:33,174 That's crazy to me. 771 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:34,931 Well, I think it does. 772 01:01:34,931 --> 01:01:37,017 I know it did at some point. 773 01:01:37,304 --> 01:01:41,727 The Steam, I just checked the Steam page, it still says it has Danuvo. 774 01:01:43,749 --> 01:01:49,162 But no one's asking for people to remove Danuvo from Redfall, because no one's playing Redfall. 775 01:01:50,655 --> 01:01:52,578 So what about Anthem? 776 01:01:52,578 --> 01:01:54,169 Like that's on the list, right? 777 01:01:54,169 --> 01:01:56,301 That's like the next story. 778 01:01:57,343 --> 01:01:59,025 Like what's going on with that? 779 01:02:00,381 --> 01:02:08,149 How does this, yeah, so with Anthem high tech, how does this kind of loop into Stop Killing Games? 780 01:02:08,731 --> 01:02:25,593 Um, well, all we know for certain is that uh they wanna kill Anthem on January 12, 2026, will most likely mean they'll kill it before Stop Killing Games actually takes effect. 781 01:02:26,534 --> 01:02:32,999 Yes, and also, I also found this super funny in the uh last question of the FAQ. 782 01:02:32,999 --> 01:02:35,841 Has anyone else at Bioware been affected by these changes? 783 01:02:35,841 --> 01:02:36,595 No. 784 01:02:36,595 --> 01:02:39,987 The sunsetting of Anthem has not led to any layoffs. 785 01:02:41,369 --> 01:02:43,601 So I thought it super funny that they had to mention that. 786 01:02:43,601 --> 01:02:45,538 But let's go over to the details. 787 01:02:45,538 --> 01:02:46,313 Let's see. 788 01:02:46,313 --> 01:02:48,395 Why can't I play Anthem in offline mode? 789 01:02:48,395 --> 01:02:53,278 It was designed to be an online only title, so once servers go offline, the game will no longer be playable. 790 01:02:53,379 --> 01:02:56,111 Can I install Anthem if I previously had purchased the game? 791 01:02:56,111 --> 01:03:00,845 Yes, if you purchase Anthem, it can still be downloadable from a digital library and played until January 12th. 792 01:03:01,590 --> 01:03:05,490 Why can I no longer purchase Anthem or in-game currency? 793 01:03:05,490 --> 01:03:14,930 Over the next 180 plus days, Anthem will still be playable offline and online and you can use the last of your in-game premium currency as we prepare to sunset the game's live 794 01:03:14,930 --> 01:03:18,510 servers on January 13th, 2026. 795 01:03:18,510 --> 01:03:20,130 We'll also be using in-game currency, yes. 796 01:03:20,130 --> 01:03:22,030 How long will it be on EA Play? 797 01:03:22,310 --> 01:03:26,990 Anthem will be removed from EA Play playlist on August 15th, 2025. 798 01:03:27,630 --> 01:03:30,043 So, Anthem hasn't seen an update. 799 01:03:30,043 --> 01:03:31,693 since 2020. 800 01:03:32,818 --> 01:03:39,320 for all intents and purposes it is a game that is no longer in active development. 801 01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,371 Yeah, Anthem is a... 802 01:03:42,371 --> 01:03:52,385 It's not the best candidate because it was reviewed so poorly, but it is an example of why we're pushing this, because there's many, many other games like that that are kind of at 803 01:03:52,385 --> 01:03:52,826 risk. 804 01:03:52,826 --> 01:04:04,630 And I'm annoyed too, because I heard it wasn't good, but I was curious because I saw, you know, all these canyons and waterfalls and worlds to run around in, so I figured, well, 805 01:04:04,630 --> 01:04:08,982 you know, if I keep my expectations low going in, that could be interesting, but... 806 01:04:09,700 --> 01:04:13,003 getting eradicated, so I won't find out. 807 01:04:13,376 --> 01:04:17,276 Yeah, and plus you can't buy the game anymore now. 808 01:04:17,276 --> 01:04:18,916 They took it off of... 809 01:04:18,916 --> 01:04:24,296 I don't think it was ever on Steam, but it used to be on the Origin, what they used to call it. 810 01:04:24,296 --> 01:04:26,116 Not anymore though, of course. 811 01:04:26,596 --> 01:04:28,176 I played the beta for Anthem. 812 01:04:28,176 --> 01:04:30,956 I thought it was pretty fun, though a lot of the... 813 01:04:30,956 --> 01:04:32,716 But that's just like the early game though. 814 01:04:32,716 --> 01:04:39,336 A lot of the issues with Anthem really crops up in the late, the end game, from what I understand. 815 01:04:39,656 --> 01:04:40,480 But that's... 816 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,500 But what matters is that the game will not be playable. 817 01:04:43,500 --> 01:04:48,760 I thought it was a pretty cool, like, cause of flight mechanics, you, all of the suits can fly. 818 01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:50,640 Kind of like if you're, kind of like Iron Man. 819 01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:53,360 And I thought that was pretty sick, to be honest. 820 01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:54,907 That was easily the best part of the game. 821 01:04:54,907 --> 01:04:58,240 I mean, that's what they sold us was that you can be Iron Man, essentially. 822 01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,662 uh I never played it. 823 01:05:00,662 --> 01:05:09,308 I was always curious, but this is one of those games where I'd like to see the preservation kind of take place, where I just don't want to see. 824 01:05:09,377 --> 01:05:23,540 I consider games art and uh killing games to where we can never get them back as they can to like ripping up a piece of art that is, you know, whether it be dozens of years or. 825 01:05:23,580 --> 01:05:32,609 100 years old like it's it's I think a little atrocious, but that's I think a little beyond the movement at this point Yeah 826 01:05:32,609 --> 01:05:34,585 getting paid to rip it up, yeah. 827 01:05:34,812 --> 01:05:35,969 Yeah. 828 01:05:35,969 --> 01:05:44,863 this reminds me of that story, you know the uh, I think it was the ecchi homo or something, it was like a picture of Jesus that was starting to get like, that was starting 829 01:05:44,863 --> 01:05:52,143 to get deteriorated but then someone painted it terribly and yeah I feel, I mean feel 830 01:05:52,143 --> 01:05:54,381 that looked like my mother might do. 831 01:05:55,376 --> 01:06:05,487 I feel bad that she had to take a lot of the blame for it because, I mean, she didn't really do a great job, but I feel bad because it's an old lady. 832 01:06:05,487 --> 01:06:06,344 but. 833 01:06:09,166 --> 01:06:11,590 I mean, I don't know. 834 01:06:11,590 --> 01:06:16,957 How would you rub this back into games because have some old... 835 01:06:18,820 --> 01:06:19,417 Yeah. 836 01:06:19,417 --> 01:06:20,398 re-implementations. 837 01:06:20,398 --> 01:06:22,399 Like it's a totally different thing, you know. 838 01:06:22,399 --> 01:06:24,501 um 839 01:06:25,441 --> 01:06:26,010 I think 840 01:06:26,010 --> 01:06:26,996 the issue... 841 01:06:26,996 --> 01:06:28,111 Yeah, go ahead. 842 01:06:28,565 --> 01:06:42,691 I was just gonna say, think even just allowing some protections to modders and to the open source community to make sure that these games don't die off would be like substantially 843 01:06:42,691 --> 01:06:42,941 better. 844 01:06:42,941 --> 01:06:54,855 Nintendo can't just go and fricking sue a whole emulator, let's say, and just destroy a whole group of preservations for Switch. 845 01:06:55,096 --> 01:06:58,128 Preserving so we can play games, let's say, down the road or... 846 01:06:58,128 --> 01:06:59,667 even the games I bought now. 847 01:06:59,950 --> 01:07:05,819 or take two, taking down the open source re-implementation of Grand Theft Auto 3, if you guys remember that. 848 01:07:05,819 --> 01:07:08,272 Yeah, where they got their money. 849 01:07:08,272 --> 01:07:19,367 It's all about protecting IP and I get it, IP laws, I make it so you have to protect your IP or you can lose some of the rights to it. 850 01:07:19,367 --> 01:07:20,560 ah Yeah. 851 01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:22,657 that's trademark that you're thinking of. 852 01:07:23,698 --> 01:07:24,674 I mean, so- 853 01:07:24,674 --> 01:07:29,988 and also um patents. 854 01:07:29,988 --> 01:07:32,007 Patents have to be defended, I know that. 855 01:07:32,007 --> 01:07:38,149 think that's a cop-out though, because you can release it on your terms, even if you have that. 856 01:07:38,149 --> 01:07:45,802 I'm pretty sure Rockstar has released old Grand Theft Auto games for free as a promotion with the new one coming. 857 01:07:45,802 --> 01:07:52,387 I remember them, you think they lost the Grand Theft Auto trade bargain anyway by doing that? 858 01:07:52,387 --> 01:07:54,175 know... 859 01:07:54,175 --> 01:07:56,378 but that's under their terms. 860 01:07:56,378 --> 01:07:57,850 I'm just talking about defending. 861 01:07:57,850 --> 01:08:00,204 I'm just talking about defending. 862 01:08:00,204 --> 01:08:01,475 I don't like it. 863 01:08:02,388 --> 01:08:09,284 fact is, uh Sega allows uh Sonic fan games, they don't have... 864 01:08:09,284 --> 01:08:13,978 They're not fretting, they're not clutching their pearls over if they're gonna lose their IP to Sonic. 865 01:08:13,978 --> 01:08:15,178 Like, it's just... 866 01:08:15,900 --> 01:08:17,241 I think that it's just... 867 01:08:17,241 --> 01:08:24,987 uh Honestly, I think it's the same uh reason that the games industry is so opposed to stop killing games, right? 868 01:08:24,987 --> 01:08:27,451 It's because they want to have control. 869 01:08:27,451 --> 01:08:29,642 and they don't want to answer to anybody. 870 01:08:29,743 --> 01:08:38,988 And uh they want to be able to like take away the games that you already own so that you are more likely to buy their next thing. 871 01:08:39,229 --> 01:08:46,863 And I think that's a flawed uh thought process, but I think that that is where they're coming from. 872 01:08:47,743 --> 01:08:49,263 I think it's the... 873 01:08:49,263 --> 01:08:51,043 I think that's the case for some companies. 874 01:08:51,043 --> 01:08:52,983 It depends on the company culture. 875 01:08:53,003 --> 01:08:58,263 I think the leading reason is they don't have to do anything, so they don't. 876 01:08:58,263 --> 01:09:03,023 And the people who are making the games typically aren't the same people making the decisions on the games. 877 01:09:03,023 --> 01:09:06,503 Those are going to be kind of the shareholders or something. 878 01:09:06,503 --> 01:09:09,383 from their perspective, it's just product. 879 01:09:09,383 --> 01:09:09,823 It doesn't... 880 01:09:09,823 --> 01:09:12,183 Okay, so we can... 881 01:09:12,183 --> 01:09:15,503 People want to keep playing this for 0.001 % cost? 882 01:09:15,503 --> 01:09:16,119 Well... 883 01:09:16,145 --> 01:09:17,636 We don't have to, so let's just not do it. 884 01:09:17,636 --> 01:09:18,856 Okay, move on to the next thing. 885 01:09:18,856 --> 01:09:22,118 Like, EA, think, is an example of that. 886 01:09:22,158 --> 01:09:25,500 Everything about EA's behavior suggests they just don't care. 887 01:09:25,500 --> 01:09:26,941 They don't care when the game goes down. 888 01:09:26,941 --> 01:09:29,752 They kind of don't care when it comes, then the few times it comes back up. 889 01:09:29,752 --> 01:09:30,863 They just don't care. 890 01:09:30,863 --> 01:09:31,783 So... 891 01:09:31,944 --> 01:09:35,265 Whereas others are trying to usher you into the new game. 892 01:09:35,265 --> 01:09:37,707 Like, I guess Overwatch would be example. 893 01:09:37,707 --> 01:09:38,897 With Blizzard. 894 01:09:39,105 --> 01:09:45,305 speak on the EA thing real quick, there and to your point about it depends on the company culture. 895 01:09:45,305 --> 01:09:49,925 Like there are leaders within EA who actually care about the community. 896 01:09:49,925 --> 01:09:52,285 And then there are ones who don't write like the guy. 897 01:09:52,285 --> 01:09:53,705 I can't remember his name. 898 01:09:53,705 --> 01:09:54,565 Jim Vasella. 899 01:09:54,565 --> 01:09:56,985 He's like the guy behind Command and Conquer. 900 01:09:56,985 --> 01:09:59,585 And he like really cares about the community. 901 01:09:59,585 --> 01:10:06,877 And he has like he's open sourced the original Command and Conquer games and he's done a bunch of work to help. 902 01:10:06,877 --> 01:10:20,930 uh OpenRA and you know these other these open source Command and Conquer projects and so uh to your point it I shouldn't just speak broadly about like all game publishers are all 903 01:10:20,930 --> 01:10:24,901 you know executives, but there definitely are some good ones out there for sure 904 01:10:24,901 --> 01:10:25,745 Mm-mm. 905 01:10:25,745 --> 01:10:29,034 Yeah, and there's some leaders in those. 906 01:10:29,436 --> 01:10:30,379 killing Anthem. 907 01:10:30,379 --> 01:10:31,805 uh 908 01:10:31,805 --> 01:10:32,476 m 909 01:10:32,476 --> 01:10:34,886 that will end Dead Space 2. 910 01:10:34,886 --> 01:10:44,582 I now that we brought up EA, Dead Space is one of my favorite series, but Dead Space 2, I bought it on Steam and then they moved everything over to their EA store, you know, and 911 01:10:44,582 --> 01:10:48,774 they kind of like F you guys over on Steam. 912 01:10:49,014 --> 01:11:02,581 I cannot place Dead Space 2 on Steam that I purchased without a CD crack because their services for checking whether the CD key is um 913 01:11:02,949 --> 01:11:15,222 Registered and like a whole other like it was back during a whole time where you could only register so many CD keys on so many computers uh Doesn't work now, so there's no way 914 01:11:15,222 --> 01:11:26,715 to play it unless you crack the game so That's EA to When it's a really simple like well look I shouldn't say really simple as long as they have the source code It's ripping that 915 01:11:26,715 --> 01:11:33,047 service out that check all they have to do is release one update for that check and It would work 916 01:11:33,135 --> 01:11:38,636 Well, don't you remember the whole studio that made Dead Space Beginning with is gone. 917 01:11:38,636 --> 01:11:47,515 Yeah, I know, but the Dead Space remake studio did an amazing job, but they still have the source code. 918 01:11:47,515 --> 01:11:50,797 They can give it to me as a contract, I'll do it for free. 919 01:11:51,939 --> 01:11:59,636 Like they don't, I'll release the patch, because I guarantee it's like a one or two line piece and I'll fix it for them. 920 01:11:59,636 --> 01:12:01,928 But it's really annoying to that. 921 01:12:02,649 --> 01:12:04,010 Don't have to hire me, just. 922 01:12:04,010 --> 01:12:07,010 of your problems for free. 923 01:12:07,353 --> 01:12:08,321 Honestly 924 01:12:08,321 --> 01:12:11,400 once you put this public, know, so they can reach you. 925 01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:11,831 cheaper. 926 01:12:11,831 --> 01:12:12,903 It's cheaper than AI. 927 01:12:12,903 --> 01:12:14,888 James is cheaper than AI. 928 01:12:14,888 --> 01:12:16,490 Hire him for free. 929 01:12:16,507 --> 01:12:28,102 Okay, well, I mean, I'm not gonna be doing a bunch of work for them for free, but like, I could solve a lot of their problems if they wanted me to, but that's, uh it's ultimately a 930 01:12:28,102 --> 01:12:29,113 leadership issue. 931 01:12:29,113 --> 01:12:31,373 And so I don't think they're gonna like that. 932 01:12:32,374 --> 01:12:34,397 Yeah, it is what it is. 933 01:12:34,397 --> 01:12:38,632 It sucks that Anthem is gonna die and it seems like EA... 934 01:12:38,632 --> 01:12:46,290 You know, this news article came out the same day that your thing hit a million signatures. 935 01:12:46,291 --> 01:12:51,952 So it makes me think that maybe they just want to kill it ahead of time before SKG can actually... 936 01:12:51,952 --> 01:12:52,812 have plenty of time. 937 01:12:52,812 --> 01:12:56,407 Yeah, if they're closing in at 2026, they'll be in the safe zone for sure. 938 01:12:56,407 --> 01:12:57,097 So I wonder how many... 939 01:12:57,097 --> 01:13:10,523 Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I am too, but I wonder how many more failed live service games we'll see, uh live services we'll see, you know, try to wrap things up before stop killing 940 01:13:10,523 --> 01:13:12,454 games can save them. 941 01:13:13,278 --> 01:13:20,624 I'm getting annoyed looking at these questions, what they can't play in offline mode, because it was designed as an online-only title. 942 01:13:20,624 --> 01:13:24,427 Fine, so rip out all the microservices and have the end of life build. 943 01:13:24,427 --> 01:13:34,445 Yeah, that's another thing I heard from a developer that's saying, not having a local test environment is basically bad practice, period, to be able to test it, because if you're 944 01:13:34,445 --> 01:13:38,489 relying on all these services while you're developing the game, well, what if one of them goes down? 945 01:13:38,489 --> 01:13:42,444 Well, then now you're stuck in the water trying to fix the game, and you can't. 946 01:13:42,444 --> 01:13:47,834 Well apparently Bungie doesn't have an internal test environment for their old versions of their games. 947 01:13:47,834 --> 01:13:51,562 So much so that they can't up- Alright, so back to the Bungie lawsuit. 948 01:13:51,562 --> 01:13:53,183 Apparently they- 949 01:13:53,485 --> 01:13:54,276 the services. 950 01:13:54,276 --> 01:13:56,358 I'm just gonna say this, sorry, just to help people. 951 01:13:56,358 --> 01:13:58,140 Like you can mock services locally. 952 01:13:58,140 --> 01:14:07,000 We do it on every other, like in every other development industry where we develop software, you can mock services. 953 01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:08,715 So sorry, continue. 954 01:14:08,715 --> 01:14:10,402 aren't needed for end of life. 955 01:14:10,402 --> 01:14:10,827 You know? 956 01:14:10,827 --> 01:14:12,007 Yeah, so. 957 01:14:12,024 --> 01:14:12,934 You could mock them even. 958 01:14:12,934 --> 01:14:20,934 could even ship it with the mock because for tests and for doing uh certain testing, you can mock services. 959 01:14:20,934 --> 01:14:23,586 You could ship it even with those mock services. 960 01:14:24,170 --> 01:14:28,972 anything that would be like a privacy issue or monetization, know, stuff that would have personal rights. 961 01:14:28,972 --> 01:14:30,836 You don't want that stuff in the final. 962 01:14:31,456 --> 01:14:32,599 Yeah, so. 963 01:14:32,599 --> 01:14:46,200 but they have, I would be shocked if they didn't have uh a way for testing locally in a mocked service to where you could just do unlimited, let's say, credits or something like 964 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:46,420 that. 965 01:14:46,420 --> 01:14:51,875 There's aspects to, they could ship at least like that, but. 966 01:14:51,875 --> 01:14:52,612 Yeah. 967 01:14:52,962 --> 01:14:53,783 Yeah. 968 01:14:54,345 --> 01:14:57,911 Sorry, were you going to high tech? 969 01:14:58,347 --> 01:15:01,868 Yeah, so anyway, so apparently they have to use video. 970 01:15:01,868 --> 01:15:09,040 They have these fan videos which contain like compilations of cutscenes that were recorded by, you YouTubers, which is bullshit. 971 01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:18,373 But speaking of YouTube, I think I think we should talk about Google or rather the de-Googling of... 972 01:15:18,382 --> 01:15:24,405 de-Googling movement, which uh there's whole Reddit community that's around and everything. 973 01:15:24,405 --> 01:15:27,716 ah I'm kind of like halfway in there. 974 01:15:27,716 --> 01:15:39,491 I've gotten rid of a lot of my Google um services except for my one Gmail account, which I just can't get rid of because there's so much tied to that one. 975 01:15:39,491 --> 01:15:41,552 But I moved everything over. 976 01:15:41,552 --> 01:15:42,492 I'm done with it. 977 01:15:42,492 --> 01:15:44,533 But you know who else is done with this? 978 01:15:44,983 --> 01:15:49,153 A little shocked even though he's been diving into Linux more and more. 979 01:15:49,153 --> 01:15:51,829 That is PewDiePie. 980 01:15:52,654 --> 01:15:54,199 PewDiePie! 981 01:15:54,506 --> 01:15:57,388 my gosh. 982 01:15:57,388 --> 01:15:59,205 This is interesting to me. 983 01:15:59,205 --> 01:16:05,873 I haven't watched the video yet, but I think I might for like react to it for my Monday video. 984 01:16:06,539 --> 01:16:14,351 So PewDiePie, he is trying to cut out Google altogether now. 985 01:16:14,351 --> 01:16:18,973 Obviously you can't cut out Google for things like YouTube, of course. 986 01:16:18,973 --> 01:16:21,953 But everything else, I mean, he switched to Arch Linux. 987 01:16:22,153 --> 01:16:29,935 And he's even riced out his Linux distro in a way that even Gardner Bryant, our resident Linux YouTuber here, hasn't. 988 01:16:30,896 --> 01:16:32,108 FROG! 989 01:16:32,108 --> 01:16:33,690 I've I am a fraud. 990 01:16:33,690 --> 01:16:44,264 I I have never riced even a little bit I like the standard gnome desktop environment and I don't care about customizing it ah So yeah, that's just me Ross. 991 01:16:44,264 --> 01:16:45,156 Do you Ross? 992 01:16:45,156 --> 01:16:47,969 Do you have any experience with Linux at all? 993 01:16:47,969 --> 01:16:50,580 Yeah, I'm monkeyed with it for a while. 994 01:16:50,580 --> 01:16:56,243 I was doing like game compatibility testing on stuff that was kind of off the beaten path. 995 01:16:56,363 --> 01:17:01,376 That, you know, there are no entries on like, what was it, ProtonDB or WineHQ. 996 01:17:01,376 --> 01:17:08,189 I'm essentially envious of people who can completely migrate to Linux. 997 01:17:08,189 --> 01:17:12,911 I have too many weird things I do that I would have to jettison too much. 998 01:17:13,017 --> 01:17:17,801 I'll tell you, it is a lifestyle that you have to fully opt into if you're gonna do it. 999 01:17:17,801 --> 01:17:19,462 Yeah. 1000 01:17:19,462 --> 01:17:20,923 I've gone through... 1001 01:17:20,937 --> 01:17:30,131 I buy a lot of hardware, uh and half of it, or maybe three quarters of it, isn't compatible with Linux, so then I have to return it, you know? 1002 01:17:30,131 --> 01:17:32,712 ah It's super fun. 1003 01:17:33,743 --> 01:17:45,728 Yeah, the nightmare scenario on my end would probably be running games that were never designed for VR with wrappers or hooks or something to make them stereoscopic and running 1004 01:17:45,728 --> 01:17:49,429 those in VR headsets that might not be supported. 1005 01:17:49,429 --> 01:17:51,730 I don't think that would be a fun time on Linux. 1006 01:17:51,742 --> 01:18:03,979 No, I mean, the thing is, even Valve's, like, index headset, which I have one out there, I have a Windows PC for that, because even to this day, like, the last time I tried, which I 1007 01:18:03,979 --> 01:18:10,813 guess was like a year ago, but the last time I tried Valve's own VR headset on Linux, it was kind of a nauseating experience. 1008 01:18:10,813 --> 01:18:12,854 ah Yeah. 1009 01:18:13,254 --> 01:18:18,155 And Valve's, the biggest, like, for-profit company champion of... 1010 01:18:18,155 --> 01:18:20,215 Linux gaming out there, so. 1011 01:18:20,215 --> 01:18:36,063 My line in the sand is if later Windows just two things either requires you to be online at all times or there is simply no way to stop updates on your own terms, then at that 1012 01:18:36,063 --> 01:18:44,592 point I'll probably be Luddite for a little while using old Windows, but I would eventually go to Linux and set up a KVM for like it. 1013 01:18:44,592 --> 01:18:49,007 I would use Linux for whatever is easy to use Linux on and then for everything else I would have a 1014 01:18:49,007 --> 01:18:58,055 KVM maybe for old Windows and then another one for modern Windows that I'm just treating like it's a thin client or something that I'm assuming it's all temporarily. 1015 01:18:58,055 --> 01:19:03,559 It'll get screwed up with whatever just for just stuff that has to be online through Windows. 1016 01:19:03,561 --> 01:19:16,190 Yeah, I mean, to be honest, the thing that's stopping me from switching full time to Linux is online multiplayer, but also just laziness because I have a lot of stuff that's set up. 1017 01:19:16,190 --> 01:19:25,435 I have my video editing set up like set up right here and it would take me a lot of time to like migrate everything, migrate all the fonts. 1018 01:19:25,436 --> 01:19:28,368 Heck, honestly, I don't know. 1019 01:19:28,368 --> 01:19:33,243 I mean, it would just take a long time for me to get everything the way I wanted to on Linux. 1020 01:19:33,243 --> 01:19:44,708 and uh, not knocking Linux, it's a great system, I explored it quite a bit and even before, like, I really dove into a deep when the Steam Deck was announced, because I was 1021 01:19:44,708 --> 01:19:51,120 like, there's no way, there's no way Linux is a good experience for video games, but then it was, so. 1022 01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:53,941 I was kind of a doubter at first. 1023 01:19:54,522 --> 01:20:04,587 With enough time and with enough developers, you can make Linux be the best experience, which I think we're already getting there somewhat with the Steam Deck. 1024 01:20:04,587 --> 01:20:09,139 But I've given up on Windows and I have switched, I have not switched over to Linux. 1025 01:20:09,139 --> 01:20:12,730 I've switched over to Unix based system, which is Mac OS. 1026 01:20:13,391 --> 01:20:14,987 So I'm sure. 1027 01:20:14,987 --> 01:20:16,628 they're cousins 1028 01:20:16,648 --> 01:20:18,771 I thought you were gonna say free BSD. 1029 01:20:19,475 --> 01:20:24,107 No, macOS, just because I'm done with Windows. 1030 01:20:24,107 --> 01:20:36,672 Now that being said, my plan is to have a handheld once the Legion Go 2 comes out to get that and to have that be like my gaming device with an eGPU. 1031 01:20:37,353 --> 01:20:45,396 And so I probably won't be going away from Windows anytime soon, but I'm gonna be limiting it as much as I can how I use it. 1032 01:20:45,396 --> 01:20:47,320 Like it's gonna be used for games that I. 1033 01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:49,991 I kind of just don't want to deal with on Linux. 1034 01:20:50,131 --> 01:20:52,431 And then I'm gonna dual boot it, of course. 1035 01:20:52,431 --> 01:20:55,912 So I'm gonna dual boot it with probably SteamOS or with Bazite. 1036 01:20:55,912 --> 01:21:04,094 And then slowly, once I feel like it's really gotten there, I'll just switch away from Windows completely. 1037 01:21:04,094 --> 01:21:07,675 uh VR is a hard one. 1038 01:21:07,675 --> 01:21:08,796 VR is a really hard one. 1039 01:21:08,796 --> 01:21:13,657 And eGPUs, I just don't know if Steam Deck supports eGPUs quite yet. 1040 01:21:14,057 --> 01:21:17,861 I'm sure if Valve wills it, they will make it happen. 1041 01:21:17,861 --> 01:21:26,439 know, PewDiePie, not only did he cut out Goot, not only did cut out uh Windows, he also cut out, uh he also started doing self-hosting stuff. 1042 01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:30,733 Like he self-hosts Nextcloud as well, which I know Gardiner does. 1043 01:21:30,913 --> 01:21:32,535 I've played with that a little bit. 1044 01:21:32,535 --> 01:21:35,137 So do you know what Nextcloud is, Ross? 1045 01:21:35,968 --> 01:21:37,050 Sorry, it's bit subit. 1046 01:21:37,050 --> 01:21:38,432 Did the last word? 1047 01:21:39,836 --> 01:21:41,217 Next cloud, no. 1048 01:21:41,217 --> 01:21:43,237 So let's say self-posted. 1049 01:21:43,237 --> 01:21:53,797 So think of like Google Drive and also Google Docs and all that stuff. 1050 01:21:54,508 --> 01:22:04,785 It's self-hosted, like you run it on a machine on local network and you can expose it to the wider internet and you can use it just like you would use Google Drive or anything 1051 01:22:04,785 --> 01:22:05,815 like that. 1052 01:22:06,945 --> 01:22:07,975 yeah, yeah, yeah. 1053 01:22:07,975 --> 01:22:13,739 apparently he also runs a self-hosted password manager on his Steam Deck. 1054 01:22:13,739 --> 01:22:21,677 So he's using his Steam Deck for server-related tasks, which is kind of insane to me. 1055 01:22:21,677 --> 01:22:22,838 That's actually really cool. 1056 01:22:22,838 --> 01:22:32,491 uh I thought about buying like a broken Steam Deck and just running the hardware in a 3D printed rack mountable case. 1057 01:22:32,491 --> 01:22:36,496 uh Like just the motherboard itself, you know? 1058 01:22:37,183 --> 01:22:38,602 You should do that, God. 1059 01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:39,850 What do you need? 1060 01:22:39,850 --> 01:22:48,474 Like I have some, I have one Steam Deck where the daughter boards don't work so the control, but you can still hook up a keyboard and mouse and it works fine. 1061 01:22:48,895 --> 01:22:52,801 What would you use it for out of curiosity, Gardner? 1062 01:22:52,801 --> 01:22:53,482 a web host. 1063 01:22:53,482 --> 01:22:57,243 You could use it to do uh crunch. 1064 01:22:57,443 --> 01:23:05,686 So I don't know if the LCD model has been unlocked yet, but there were a bunch of AI cores that were locked in the CPU. 1065 01:23:05,686 --> 01:23:13,969 um And you could use, if those have been unlocked at some point, we could use that for like some AI crunching stuff. 1066 01:23:14,573 --> 01:23:15,793 to me, I crunching. 1067 01:23:15,793 --> 01:23:24,656 I do know that like the Steam Deck is horrible at multi-threaded tasks compared to, it's very optimized for games, let's say. 1068 01:23:24,656 --> 01:23:37,100 Because I have developed on a Steam Deck, because I have software that I need to bring back, ah but I have developed software for the Steam Deck on the Steam Deck and it was a 1069 01:23:37,100 --> 01:23:37,410 nightmare. 1070 01:23:37,410 --> 01:23:39,649 Yeah. 1071 01:23:39,649 --> 01:23:47,549 the simplest solution could also be to just turn it into like a home console of sorts. 1072 01:23:48,409 --> 01:24:00,275 Put that baby in a little 3D printing enclosure that, you know, screw it up, put a fan on it just in case, and Bob's uncle. 1073 01:24:00,275 --> 01:24:01,876 think there's someone who's already done that. 1074 01:24:01,876 --> 01:24:07,428 I've thought about doing that, but at the end of the day, I really just like the eGPU, it does bother me. 1075 01:24:07,428 --> 01:24:09,979 Like there's not eGPU support for the Steam Deck. 1076 01:24:09,979 --> 01:24:20,694 I really think that's the final piece of the puzzle to just have the main gaming device would be a handheld and then you can hook it up into an eGPU in any house or any part of 1077 01:24:20,694 --> 01:24:21,493 the house you want. 1078 01:24:21,493 --> 01:24:22,385 But yeah. 1079 01:24:22,614 --> 01:24:23,291 Yeah. 1080 01:24:23,291 --> 01:24:34,658 To give you a quick Linux story I had when I was doing tests on it, one of the things I wanted to simulate was like trying to, a lot of old games, especially on Nvidia cards, but 1081 01:24:34,658 --> 01:24:40,361 both to some extent, I mean with AMD, you can force anti-aliasing on older games. 1082 01:24:40,381 --> 01:24:48,086 And there was some of that on Wine, not on Proton, but on Proton, you could still have the option of down sampling, know, so rendering it higher. 1083 01:24:48,086 --> 01:24:50,307 Well, on Windows... 1084 01:24:50,587 --> 01:24:56,887 I think of both AMD and Nvidia, that's just a matter of just, you know, putting in some numbers or checking a box and you're done. 1085 01:24:57,027 --> 01:25:05,607 On Linux, I was, it was led to the down the road where we have to use GameScope to do it and specify the numbers. 1086 01:25:05,607 --> 01:25:07,047 But then we tried it and it wouldn't work. 1087 01:25:07,047 --> 01:25:10,387 And I was getting help from people much more experienced than me on this. 1088 01:25:10,387 --> 01:25:16,107 And there was like a whole thread in my forums on it where it just kept escalating where it wouldn't work. 1089 01:25:16,107 --> 01:25:20,123 And then for a long time, I found out like one of 1090 01:25:20,123 --> 01:25:25,983 one of the repositories for it, they were actually sending me a bad link of an older one. 1091 01:25:25,983 --> 01:25:27,643 That was the reason it wasn't working. 1092 01:25:27,643 --> 01:25:34,283 But then we found that, and then it still wasn't working properly or, yeah, like I was trying to do just a 2x scaling. 1093 01:25:34,283 --> 01:25:42,263 And what we found was that for some reason, like just simple integer numbers didn't work, but if you did 2.01, then that did work. 1094 01:25:42,263 --> 01:25:49,051 And then somebody went and modified that on the, on it for it to finally work and then... 1095 01:25:49,051 --> 01:25:51,711 got rid of some extra blur filter and then it finally worked. 1096 01:25:51,711 --> 01:25:53,911 I'm just like, good God, you know. 1097 01:25:54,031 --> 01:25:59,431 That's the thing, like some things on Linux, for me, it's like a third that they work just fine. 1098 01:25:59,431 --> 01:26:06,891 And then there's like other things that are like that where it's just this weeks long rabbit hole, sometimes with help. 1099 01:26:07,231 --> 01:26:12,471 see what scares me about Linux is that I don't always know if there's gonna be light at the end of that tunnel. 1100 01:26:12,491 --> 01:26:17,977 See, if I knew it was just a matter of jumping through 50 hoops, I can do that, but it's... 1101 01:26:17,977 --> 01:26:21,899 When I don't know um how deep the well goes, you know? 1102 01:26:21,941 --> 01:26:23,727 That's what could scare me on it. 1103 01:26:23,727 --> 01:26:24,787 No, that was it. 1104 01:26:24,787 --> 01:26:26,558 It was just an example. 1105 01:26:26,558 --> 01:26:28,099 No, I get it like that. 1106 01:26:28,099 --> 01:26:43,623 There's a bunch that can just go wrong in the walk wonky as ways But like I also find that fun so the uncertainty as long as I'm not like Yeah, as long as you're not like doing 1107 01:26:43,623 --> 01:26:53,966 mission critical stuff that has to be done at a certain time And you just enjoy it then it's it's quite quite fun um but there are there are some Linux distros out there that 1108 01:26:53,966 --> 01:26:54,826 like 1109 01:26:57,108 --> 01:27:03,203 Just for some reason they just seem to like have better support for everything uh Linux Mint is one of them. 1110 01:27:03,203 --> 01:27:03,595 Yeah 1111 01:27:03,595 --> 01:27:03,866 was... 1112 01:27:03,866 --> 01:27:11,982 I could probably find the version number, at some point when I was running into some problems, it was just feeling so crazy to me that I thought, like, okay, should I just try 1113 01:27:11,982 --> 01:27:13,253 another distro? 1114 01:27:13,253 --> 01:27:17,197 And some people recommended Nobara just for, like, a testing purpose. 1115 01:27:17,197 --> 01:27:21,530 And at the time, they probably fixed it by now, I downloaded it, started... 1116 01:27:21,530 --> 01:27:28,066 This is a second system, so I just nuked everything, you know, wiped the drive so it could install fresh, that sort of thing. 1117 01:27:28,066 --> 01:27:31,166 And it just screwed up its own bootloader. 1118 01:27:31,166 --> 01:27:36,043 And it would just, I could never actually, it would install and then it would just screw up every time. 1119 01:27:36,043 --> 01:27:40,338 And this is with me giving full permission to just wipe the SSD or wipe the hard drive. 1120 01:27:40,338 --> 01:27:41,490 It can do whatever it wants. 1121 01:27:41,490 --> 01:27:43,570 And so. 1122 01:27:43,570 --> 01:27:58,580 Yeah, I yeah, I get that I've seen I've seen some very strange things uh Just I once I think I've the story on the podcast before but Ross I installed a Ubuntu a long long time 1123 01:27:58,580 --> 01:28:07,266 ago on my dad's laptop and uh He was not super savvy with computers, but he knew enough to be dangerous. 1124 01:28:07,266 --> 01:28:13,150 So uh he wanted to uh Start chatting with like 1125 01:28:13,736 --> 01:28:28,936 peep like women from other countries and he ended up he ended up installing a Chinese like malware chat app a Windows Chinese malware app and he installed malware on Linux through 1126 01:28:28,936 --> 01:28:41,815 wine and I was very impressed that that not only did he was he capable of doing that uh but he also like the malware actually worked on Ubuntu I was like holy cow I can't believe 1127 01:28:41,815 --> 01:28:42,645 that 1128 01:28:44,278 --> 01:28:53,936 Kind of reminds me there's an Aqua Teen Hunger Force episode where they get flooded with all these malware ads and just keeps clicking on everyone that comes up, know. 1129 01:28:54,311 --> 01:28:55,536 yeah, that's my dad. 1130 01:28:55,536 --> 01:28:57,300 My dad is Master Shake. 1131 01:28:59,530 --> 01:29:00,892 That's hilarious. 1132 01:29:00,994 --> 01:29:01,635 That's good. 1133 01:29:01,635 --> 01:29:04,325 ah 1134 01:29:04,325 --> 01:29:04,847 believe it. 1135 01:29:04,847 --> 01:29:05,389 Sorry. 1136 01:29:05,389 --> 01:29:08,647 Totally stole the momentum of the conversation. 1137 01:29:09,212 --> 01:29:09,762 Dude, you're good. 1138 01:29:09,762 --> 01:29:10,513 That's great. 1139 01:29:10,513 --> 01:29:11,774 Love it. 1140 01:29:11,774 --> 01:29:18,229 I am curious though, like, so PewDiePie de-Googling, like I haven't, I wanna watch, I haven't actually seen his video. 1141 01:29:18,229 --> 01:29:19,900 I just have read a lot of stuff on it. 1142 01:29:21,002 --> 01:29:22,302 is he getting rid of YouTube? 1143 01:29:22,302 --> 01:29:28,077 Cause I feel like that's the last part of the whole piece and he can't, like it's really difficult to do that for him. 1144 01:29:28,077 --> 01:29:33,671 Like it's, do you know if he's doing that or is that a high tech question? 1145 01:29:34,412 --> 01:29:36,924 Cause yeah, like, 1146 01:29:36,928 --> 01:29:37,730 oh 1147 01:29:37,820 --> 01:29:39,961 He's he's got a big following on other. 1148 01:29:39,961 --> 01:29:54,018 I'm sure he's got a big social media so he could rebuild his his base, not that he's semi-retired, but it is interesting to get rid of, you know, everything Google, but 1149 01:29:54,018 --> 01:29:56,101 YouTube is such a hard one. 1150 01:29:56,101 --> 01:29:56,729 And so. 1151 01:29:56,729 --> 01:29:58,077 I mean there is PeerTube. 1152 01:29:58,077 --> 01:30:04,003 So, Hi Tech, what is PewDiePie gonna be doing with YouTube? 1153 01:30:04,003 --> 01:30:06,196 Is he gonna be trying to get away from YouTube now? 1154 01:30:06,196 --> 01:30:06,677 Um... 1155 01:30:06,677 --> 01:30:07,857 You know? 1156 01:30:08,577 --> 01:30:12,337 I haven't watched the video, actually, but... 1157 01:30:12,337 --> 01:30:17,277 I just read the article, and the article doesn't mention anything about... 1158 01:30:17,277 --> 01:30:20,237 Oh, wait, no, there's a- no, it says, except YouTube. 1159 01:30:20,276 --> 01:30:23,177 I literally can't escape, so... 1160 01:30:23,177 --> 01:30:24,477 There, dude. 1161 01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:30,108 I figured he would not be getting rid of YouTube because he's got 110 million subscribers. 1162 01:30:31,612 --> 01:30:34,015 We should have him on the podcast and ask. 1163 01:30:34,230 --> 01:30:38,086 that's kind of the dynamic for some people staying at Windows. 1164 01:30:38,086 --> 01:30:40,036 It's a hostage situation. 1165 01:30:40,036 --> 01:30:41,889 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 1166 01:30:41,889 --> 01:30:43,330 It's designed that way. 1167 01:30:43,330 --> 01:30:45,377 though, because you're the Linux Tuber. 1168 01:30:45,862 --> 01:30:46,584 Dude, I will. 1169 01:30:46,584 --> 01:30:48,638 I'm gonna reach out to him right now. 1170 01:30:50,423 --> 01:30:51,662 Yes, but uh 1171 01:30:51,662 --> 01:30:56,802 Yeah, but I think a lot of people can really trust PewDiePie's opinion on... 1172 01:30:56,802 --> 01:30:59,694 Well actually, can you really trust PewDiePie's opinion on Linux? 1173 01:30:59,694 --> 01:31:13,245 Yeah, he I honestly believe he had one of the best uh Videos on the topic of Linux like it showed how much fun it can be and that's why I use it right like I use it because it's 1174 01:31:13,245 --> 01:31:24,608 enjoyable ah and He just showed how like all of the enthusiasm he had for it ah And how deep you can go down that rabbit hole and I thought that it was fantastic 1175 01:31:24,608 --> 01:31:26,962 Yes, but can you trust... 1176 01:31:27,285 --> 01:31:28,285 Xbox? 1177 01:31:28,932 --> 01:31:30,159 Can we trust Xbox? 1178 01:31:30,159 --> 01:31:32,259 I know, I don't think we can. 1179 01:31:34,458 --> 01:31:36,545 I think you can, I'm gonna be... 1180 01:31:37,322 --> 01:31:38,381 I Have a long memory. 1181 01:31:38,381 --> 01:31:47,711 I remember where Xbox kind of sold out PC gamers down the line, you know Where would you started coming Microsoft which control windows? 1182 01:31:47,711 --> 01:31:57,628 there was an era of all these exclusives on Xbox that they kept off windows and I was even part of the contract and It's like what the hell are they doing at that point? 1183 01:31:57,628 --> 01:32:00,120 You know, I mean I get it but it 1184 01:32:00,881 --> 01:32:09,010 That's where I feel like, okay, if you want to do that, then I think you should have antitrust regulation, know, or investigation at least, that you're setting up competing 1185 01:32:09,010 --> 01:32:10,505 products against yourself. 1186 01:32:10,505 --> 01:32:12,637 That's it. 1187 01:32:12,637 --> 01:32:17,108 like I've said multiple times on this podcast, you can't trust any big corporation. 1188 01:32:17,108 --> 01:32:18,618 It's just how it is. 1189 01:32:18,618 --> 01:32:26,111 They've got their stakeholders, which should include us, is their uh investors and stuff like that. 1190 01:32:26,111 --> 01:32:27,761 And that's who they're gonna appease to. 1191 01:32:27,761 --> 01:32:32,279 So yeah, that's my biggest take on this. 1192 01:32:32,279 --> 01:32:33,283 You cannot. 1193 01:32:34,959 --> 01:32:37,821 So, here's the crazy part. 1194 01:32:37,821 --> 01:32:46,928 So, Xbox recently just laid off over 9,000 employees, which is like, I believe, 4 % of their entire workforce. 1195 01:32:47,689 --> 01:32:52,533 Still a lot of people though, and it's really the most unfortunate thing. 1196 01:32:52,533 --> 01:32:57,016 Well, any layoff is unfortunate, really, but like 9,000 people? 1197 01:32:57,016 --> 01:32:59,378 Shit, man, I don't even think I know 9,000 people. 1198 01:32:59,378 --> 01:33:00,580 That's way more people than... 1199 01:33:00,580 --> 01:33:04,098 Yeah, that's like a decently attended concert. 1200 01:33:04,098 --> 01:33:07,283 Like a very, very well attended concert, actually. 1201 01:33:08,291 --> 01:33:21,383 Yes, and among those are actual entire game studios being shut down, like uh the Initiative, which was responsible for developing, well, guess what? 1202 01:33:22,004 --> 01:33:23,165 The Perfect Dark game. 1203 01:33:23,165 --> 01:33:28,800 Now, I don't know how interested you guys were in the game, but I was vaguely interested. 1204 01:33:29,542 --> 01:33:33,922 Yeah, Perfect Dark was my favorite game on the N64. 1205 01:33:33,922 --> 01:33:42,442 It was one of my favorite Xbox Live arcade releases, and I am devastated that they canceled that game. 1206 01:33:43,330 --> 01:33:45,467 Hmm and 1207 01:33:46,471 --> 01:33:55,673 for me, I liked Perfect Dark on the N64, but then I didn't really care for anything else that came out, but this one looked really good. 1208 01:33:55,673 --> 01:33:59,894 I was shocked that they killed this game. 1209 01:34:01,395 --> 01:34:06,016 It brings me back to StarCraft Ghosts, which was canceled decades ago. 1210 01:34:06,016 --> 01:34:12,729 That it's just like, they promoted a game, and then you're really excited for it, and they just never released it. 1211 01:34:12,729 --> 01:34:22,873 And I don't know if I want to put like any rules down or anything for them to have to release games that they're promoting, but I would like to see games come out even if 1212 01:34:22,873 --> 01:34:24,444 they're not fully ready. 1213 01:34:25,884 --> 01:34:30,186 Yeah, well, I would just like to play it. 1214 01:34:30,401 --> 01:34:40,148 The the wild thing about their announcement here is that a lot of the games have been in development for like six seven eight years the ones that they're canceling and it's like 1215 01:34:40,148 --> 01:34:48,173 is this a matter of them just cutting the cord or is this just like indicative of mismanagement at these at Microsoft 1216 01:34:48,237 --> 01:34:53,922 one thing I'm baffled by is didn't that, was it like, Hi-Fi Rush game do well? 1217 01:34:53,922 --> 01:34:56,565 And then they're just like, okay, great, now we're gonna kill us. 1218 01:34:56,565 --> 01:35:00,115 Like I thought that one was profitable and like had some acclaim, wasn't it? 1219 01:35:00,115 --> 01:35:00,915 yeah it was. 1220 01:35:00,915 --> 01:35:10,006 Microsoft said that at first, clearly it must have not made enough money for them to care that much about the studio. 1221 01:35:11,185 --> 01:35:12,986 Yeah, though, I mean, I don't know. 1222 01:35:12,986 --> 01:35:17,749 I'm curious about what the thought process is if it is making money and winning awards. 1223 01:35:17,749 --> 01:35:23,233 Because I think they said they wanted kind of a division that might be more indie and win some more. 1224 01:35:23,233 --> 01:35:31,938 Also, I think I heard that they wanted more presence in Eastern markets, and that was a good game for that. 1225 01:35:32,278 --> 01:35:34,895 So, yeah. 1226 01:35:34,895 --> 01:35:37,539 was, you know, was that perfect, like, Jap- 1227 01:35:37,539 --> 01:35:39,173 like they're getting what they say they want. 1228 01:35:39,173 --> 01:35:40,436 So yeah, let's kill it. 1229 01:35:40,436 --> 01:35:42,439 That was kind of my understanding. 1230 01:35:42,894 --> 01:35:58,421 I think there is a leadership battle going on because uh they bought a ton of developers and then from my understanding, they were supposed to have a huge increase in subs for uh 1231 01:35:58,421 --> 01:36:03,363 the um Xbox Game Pass, but that did not really happen. 1232 01:36:03,363 --> 01:36:11,776 And so their sales were a little underwhelming and then I bet you some other leadership are a little bit higher than the one that had that initiative. 1233 01:36:12,103 --> 01:36:13,463 kind of stepped in. 1234 01:36:13,484 --> 01:36:21,508 This is all me guessing, but like killed a lot of this stuff and like going through and just trying to make things profitable. 1235 01:36:21,508 --> 01:36:23,880 And that's the problem is that games don't work that way. 1236 01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:30,453 If you have a game that is profitable and the studio is making, like it's making money, it's not losing you money, why shut it down? 1237 01:36:30,453 --> 01:36:32,454 The next game could even be bigger. 1238 01:36:32,535 --> 01:36:39,178 Part of it I think is that live action also drive to just, or not live action, sorry, live service too. 1239 01:36:39,536 --> 01:36:44,352 driving to really try to have a live service game that's going to be the next billion dollar game. 1240 01:36:44,628 --> 01:36:57,332 Yeah, I've heard stories about EA before where they, in the company culture, there was some developer there that came up with a model for like a, know, lowish budget that could 1241 01:36:57,332 --> 01:36:59,432 produce a respectable profit. 1242 01:36:59,452 --> 01:37:03,123 And there wasn't, he was told that that's not how things work. 1243 01:37:03,123 --> 01:37:07,174 They kind of want to, you know, roll the dice on like a giant hit. 1244 01:37:07,174 --> 01:37:11,215 And they're almost like not interested in like small wins. 1245 01:37:11,456 --> 01:37:13,846 It's like all or nothing kind of mentality. 1246 01:37:14,552 --> 01:37:15,044 Yeah. 1247 01:37:15,044 --> 01:37:18,175 it's an investment mentality that's actually not great. 1248 01:37:18,175 --> 01:37:23,738 It's actually caused a lot of issues in the other parts of the tech industry is that they'll, they do, roll that. 1249 01:37:23,738 --> 01:37:33,342 It's it's it's a form of gambling in some form of fashion where they want to hit big or it doesn't matter, but that's not how you develop a healthy portfolio. 1250 01:37:33,342 --> 01:37:37,864 And so they're learning, they're learning, but well, okay, they're not learning. 1251 01:37:37,864 --> 01:37:39,685 They're, they're seeing the results of that. 1252 01:37:39,685 --> 01:37:43,194 We'll see if they actually learn because I don't think they're going to learn either. 1253 01:37:43,194 --> 01:37:44,319 I don't know. 1254 01:37:45,482 --> 01:37:47,384 Microsoft is, I mean... 1255 01:37:47,384 --> 01:37:48,855 They're suffering. 1256 01:37:49,432 --> 01:37:51,643 So there was also one crazy article. 1257 01:37:51,643 --> 01:38:00,007 uh It's a LinkedIn post from Matt Turnbull, executive producer at Xbox Game Studios Publishing, here's the quote. 1258 01:38:00,007 --> 01:38:09,011 It says, I've been experimenting with ways to use LLM tools to help with reducing the emotional and cognitive load that comes with job loss. 1259 01:38:09,191 --> 01:38:15,814 Is that not crazy to you that he recommends using AI to coddle you emotionally? 1260 01:38:16,355 --> 01:38:19,160 Therapy AI therapist, ugh. 1261 01:38:19,903 --> 01:38:23,323 we just use AI to replace all these hired management people? 1262 01:38:23,323 --> 01:38:25,919 mean, what does a producer really do? 1263 01:38:25,919 --> 01:38:27,400 Here's the funny thing. 1264 01:38:29,442 --> 01:38:36,627 The position that's easiest to replace, like right now, is upper management or mid management. 1265 01:38:36,627 --> 01:38:37,807 Funny enough. 1266 01:38:40,450 --> 01:38:41,369 So. 1267 01:38:41,474 --> 01:38:47,445 a company that's run by a bunch of incompetent leaders or a company run by a bunch of AI? 1268 01:38:48,186 --> 01:38:50,816 I don't like this answer, but I'd rather. 1269 01:38:50,816 --> 01:38:52,112 algorithm is. 1270 01:38:52,112 --> 01:38:53,002 Mm-hmm. 1271 01:38:53,348 --> 01:38:55,163 I'd rather work for Skynet, I think. 1272 01:38:55,163 --> 01:38:56,846 think they'd be nicer to me. 1273 01:38:58,011 --> 01:38:59,292 That's brutal. 1274 01:39:00,096 --> 01:39:00,688 It's br- 1275 01:39:00,688 --> 01:39:02,242 need living expenses. 1276 01:39:02,242 --> 01:39:03,334 They don't need housing. 1277 01:39:03,334 --> 01:39:06,127 They don't need food, gas. 1278 01:39:06,127 --> 01:39:08,107 like it's too dystopian, but 1279 01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:21,889 them is a company run by a group of individuals that don't care at all about the people underneath them and have no emotion and only care about money, and the other are AI. 1280 01:39:21,889 --> 01:39:23,230 uh 1281 01:39:23,532 --> 01:39:25,149 AI, which is more ethical. 1282 01:39:25,149 --> 01:39:27,902 following the bidding of the first group, essentially. 1283 01:39:27,902 --> 01:39:35,842 But it would be more kind oh of chaotic or incoherent. 1284 01:39:35,842 --> 01:39:41,907 So maybe you could figure out how to squeeze between the cracks, carve out something. 1285 01:39:41,907 --> 01:39:43,938 are some prompts that Mr. 1286 01:39:43,938 --> 01:39:45,586 Turnbull recommended. 1287 01:39:45,586 --> 01:39:49,011 Oh, the post has been deleted from his LinkedIn since then. 1288 01:39:49,011 --> 01:39:50,152 here's one. 1289 01:39:50,192 --> 01:39:51,563 Act as a career coach. 1290 01:39:51,563 --> 01:39:54,935 I've been laid off from a quote role at video game industry. 1291 01:39:54,935 --> 01:40:00,079 Help me build a 30 day plan to regroup, research new roles, and start applying without burning out. 1292 01:40:00,079 --> 01:40:05,575 uh Crap like this is why I play games, so I don't like focus on 1293 01:40:06,469 --> 01:40:13,806 I just I'm just putting myself in this guy's like mindset He's like how can I help the people that I've ruined their lives? 1294 01:40:13,806 --> 01:40:18,019 let's find out what yeah, recommend like what are you thinking, bro? 1295 01:40:18,055 --> 01:40:18,667 AI! 1296 01:40:18,667 --> 01:40:21,566 Oh, they recommend recommending AI to people. 1297 01:40:21,566 --> 01:40:23,444 Wow, that's really helpful. 1298 01:40:23,444 --> 01:40:27,711 this is just gonna drive more union. 1299 01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:31,381 profits from the use of OpenAI, so... 1300 01:40:33,823 --> 01:40:36,265 They're selling the sickness and the cure. 1301 01:40:36,369 --> 01:40:38,342 See, here's my resume. 1302 01:40:38,342 --> 01:40:39,503 Here's my current resume. 1303 01:40:39,503 --> 01:40:41,476 Give me three tailored versions. 1304 01:40:41,476 --> 01:40:48,204 One for AAA, one for a platform slash publishing roles, and one for a startup slash small studio leadership. 1305 01:40:48,806 --> 01:40:51,333 Bro, I'm, bro, I was- 1306 01:40:51,333 --> 01:40:54,238 owns half of the studios in the West. 1307 01:40:54,238 --> 01:40:55,770 like, what is he talking about? 1308 01:40:55,770 --> 01:40:58,743 They've laid off most of the studios. 1309 01:40:58,975 --> 01:41:04,260 I know, but how these big companies work is if you get laid off, you can still get hired at another studio. 1310 01:41:04,260 --> 01:41:06,692 They don't like repositioning people. 1311 01:41:07,105 --> 01:41:15,209 If Google does it, it's a very super bizarre practice to not just reallocate your developers. 1312 01:41:15,209 --> 01:41:18,333 What they will do is they'll lay them off and then they'll rehire them. 1313 01:41:18,333 --> 01:41:24,769 They're fine rehiring them at another studio, but it looks better on the books. 1314 01:41:25,869 --> 01:41:29,160 terrible prompt. 1315 01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:30,391 Oh my god... 1316 01:41:30,391 --> 01:41:33,526 That is the craziest. 1317 01:41:33,605 --> 01:41:39,331 So yeah, this is pretty dystopian and this is gonna drive for unionization. 1318 01:41:39,331 --> 01:41:46,119 I'm sorry, game industry, you're getting unionized like very soon with this type of behavior. 1319 01:41:46,240 --> 01:41:47,559 There's no way to... 1320 01:41:47,692 --> 01:41:57,268 Yeah, so one commenter in our comments has been accusing us of some pretty severe anti-Xbox bias, which I mean is totally fair. 1321 01:41:57,569 --> 01:42:00,390 But at the same time though, Xbox is doing this stuff. 1322 01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:01,390 Yeah. 1323 01:42:01,751 --> 01:42:11,562 I mean, I only have such resentment for modern Xbox because I am such a fan of original Xbox and like early 360 era. 1324 01:42:11,683 --> 01:42:14,338 Like I miss that era. 1325 01:42:14,338 --> 01:42:19,928 Yeah, like if you weren't a fan of Xbox to begin with, you probably wouldn't care all that much about the things they're doing to self-destruct, right? 1326 01:42:19,928 --> 01:42:21,507 Yeah, exactly. 1327 01:42:21,507 --> 01:42:23,463 I don't know man, Xbox is crazy. 1328 01:42:23,463 --> 01:42:25,828 Ah, shit, there's so much. 1329 01:42:26,348 --> 01:42:32,174 Yeah, that always kind of baffled me, is the naming too, like Xbox Series X. 1330 01:42:32,174 --> 01:42:36,718 I mean, it's almost parody level at that point. 1331 01:42:36,718 --> 01:42:45,386 Like, I mean, I would think you just want Xbox Three or just Xbox Fusion or just something easy to identify. 1332 01:42:45,891 --> 01:42:49,395 How about the ROG Xbox Ally X? 1333 01:42:50,067 --> 01:42:51,534 I hadn't heard of that one. 1334 01:42:51,544 --> 01:42:52,015 it's there. 1335 01:42:52,015 --> 01:42:55,460 It's ROG's new Xbox handheld. 1336 01:42:55,460 --> 01:43:02,428 It's like the ally, but it's the Xbox ally X series S pro max. 1337 01:43:04,631 --> 01:43:05,327 Right. 1338 01:43:05,327 --> 01:43:06,859 would understand? 1339 01:43:07,766 --> 01:43:08,418 It's it. 1340 01:43:08,418 --> 01:43:09,203 on the go. 1341 01:43:09,203 --> 01:43:12,040 It's Asus Xbox Alley. 1342 01:43:12,069 --> 01:43:13,400 Or whatever you know. 1343 01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:14,326 right. 1344 01:43:14,326 --> 01:43:19,034 ROG, Xbox, Ally X, my god. 1345 01:43:19,034 --> 01:43:22,398 I uh still cannot get over the name. 1346 01:43:22,620 --> 01:43:24,302 Listen, is the... 1347 01:43:25,324 --> 01:43:26,196 Who decided this? 1348 01:43:26,196 --> 01:43:28,509 Was it Microsoft or Asus? 1349 01:43:28,585 --> 01:43:30,778 par for the course for Microsoft though. 1350 01:43:30,778 --> 01:43:33,644 Like their naming conventions are so terrible. 1351 01:43:33,644 --> 01:43:35,868 ah It's so bad. 1352 01:43:35,868 --> 01:43:36,652 they're just so. 1353 01:43:36,652 --> 01:43:44,961 I heard for the Xbox One, that one was Steve Ballmer's project where he thought everybody was going to be calling it The One. 1354 01:43:44,961 --> 01:43:49,687 You know, like he had this kind of like, yeah, yeah, I think so. 1355 01:43:49,687 --> 01:43:57,675 Like that's, thought that, and then when people started calling it X-Bone, that kind of backfired because that's like, wait, this isn't what, you know. 1356 01:43:57,873 --> 01:43:59,058 Ugh, dude. 1357 01:43:59,058 --> 01:44:01,960 I kinda dig X-Bone, I like X-Bone. 1358 01:44:01,980 --> 01:44:13,610 My problem was, even Xbox One was like, okay, this is stupid, but I just cannot believe that after the Xbox One, they went with Xbox Series X and stuff like this. 1359 01:44:13,610 --> 01:44:16,791 They ramped up the stupidity with the names. 1360 01:44:16,791 --> 01:44:17,671 kind of works. 1361 01:44:17,671 --> 01:44:18,589 That one kind of works. 1362 01:44:18,589 --> 01:44:21,031 did you think that we're going to call the Xbox one to? 1363 01:44:22,375 --> 01:44:24,039 Xbox one two three switch 1364 01:44:24,039 --> 01:44:24,840 people. 1365 01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:25,410 I don't know. 1366 01:44:25,410 --> 01:44:36,065 No, that's the thing, like, it is stupid, but like, having, the more complicated you make the name, the more likely you're gonna confuse the consumer and you're gonna lose sales. 1367 01:44:36,646 --> 01:44:37,037 So. 1368 01:44:37,037 --> 01:44:39,078 mom wants to buy it for kids. 1369 01:44:39,078 --> 01:44:41,660 Like, well, wait, what's an Xbox series? 1370 01:44:41,660 --> 01:44:45,182 Because they're going to see the old Xbox One, Xbox Series. 1371 01:44:45,182 --> 01:44:46,313 You know, what is this? 1372 01:44:46,313 --> 01:44:47,196 You know? 1373 01:44:47,196 --> 01:44:51,073 It's very confusing and that's why PlayStation's winning and Nintendo. 1374 01:44:51,073 --> 01:44:59,389 Like, they're like, well there's a Nintendo switch and then there's the OLED, which obviously is just a better screen. 1375 01:44:59,389 --> 01:45:00,229 It's... 1376 01:45:00,421 --> 01:45:01,501 You 1377 01:45:03,468 --> 01:45:04,058 So. 1378 01:45:04,058 --> 01:45:04,489 I guess. 1379 01:45:04,489 --> 01:45:06,289 Everything's in Xbox now though, so. 1380 01:45:06,289 --> 01:45:19,569 I think it was Jesus Vista or seven where they made like a Windows 7 party to celebrate it's like the whole thing it was a marketing thing it feels like it was filmed by aliens 1381 01:45:19,569 --> 01:45:31,289 or written, but let's see Windows 7 I can't remember if it was Vista or Yeah, Windows 7 launch party that was it It is surreal. 1382 01:45:31,289 --> 01:45:32,389 Yeah 1383 01:45:32,789 --> 01:45:36,287 To be fair, the Windows 7 was a massive improvement over Windows Vista. 1384 01:45:36,287 --> 01:45:44,893 is, but this is like an alien, aliens put together like a documentary about people having a social gathering. 1385 01:45:44,893 --> 01:45:46,815 It is so bizarre. 1386 01:45:47,433 --> 01:45:50,702 Yeah, man, that's just Microsoft C suites at their best. 1387 01:45:50,702 --> 01:45:51,584 Yeah. 1388 01:45:53,632 --> 01:45:54,820 They went on that. 1389 01:45:54,820 --> 01:45:59,889 I think though there are some calls to have Phil Spencer step down. 1390 01:46:00,330 --> 01:46:06,710 What are your thoughts on Phil Spencer's leadership at Microsoft or Xbox specifically? 1391 01:46:06,710 --> 01:46:11,747 I think Peter Moore was the best head of Xbox and they need to bring him back. 1392 01:46:13,370 --> 01:46:16,574 Peter, he's at EA Sports, I think. 1393 01:46:18,097 --> 01:46:19,309 Or he could be retired. 1394 01:46:19,309 --> 01:46:22,720 mean, that was like almost 30 years ago when he took over for Xbox. 1395 01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:23,684 Damn, man. 1396 01:46:23,684 --> 01:46:27,095 EA Sports, that doesn't give me lot of hope. 1397 01:46:27,095 --> 01:46:33,903 I just think Xbox needs new leadership personally, if they're gonna survive. 1398 01:46:33,903 --> 01:46:37,243 got new leadership too, and it looks like they're doing a little better already. 1399 01:46:37,243 --> 01:46:39,323 It's only been like a year or two. 1400 01:46:39,323 --> 01:46:42,475 Like they just released Astro Bot and they're marketing the hell out of that. 1401 01:46:43,293 --> 01:46:44,543 Astro Bot's so good. 1402 01:46:44,543 --> 01:46:50,226 If they keep on going that direction, PlayStation's just gonna royally fuck Xbox, I think. 1403 01:46:50,226 --> 01:46:53,507 They're just gonna win. 1404 01:46:53,507 --> 01:46:54,688 Because Astro Bot's so good. 1405 01:46:54,688 --> 01:47:06,493 If they can just release a new PlayStation Vita kind of situation where it's just like, kind of like the Portal, but an actual handheld, I think they're gonna be on a huge 1406 01:47:06,493 --> 01:47:07,113 winning trend. 1407 01:47:07,113 --> 01:47:11,125 uh 1408 01:47:11,125 --> 01:47:18,560 Xbox though, um Sony released Helldivers 2 on Xbox, and some Sony fans are reeeeally pissed. 1409 01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:23,083 um 1410 01:47:23,721 --> 01:47:26,369 Sony fan- man, fandoms alone are just toxic. 1411 01:47:26,369 --> 01:47:28,835 m 1412 01:47:30,296 --> 01:47:30,916 Yeah, I think- 1413 01:47:30,916 --> 01:47:38,221 am glad the ratio of exclusive seems to be lower and lower these days compared to the past. 1414 01:47:38,706 --> 01:47:39,643 Agreed. 1415 01:47:39,984 --> 01:47:44,479 dealing with fandoms is a true horror story, but have you seen this true horror story? 1416 01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:46,261 So, how many of you guys watch anime? 1417 01:47:46,261 --> 01:47:47,048 I do. 1418 01:47:47,164 --> 01:47:48,114 I do too. 1419 01:47:48,114 --> 01:47:50,186 What about you, Ross? 1420 01:47:50,808 --> 01:47:52,418 I've seen very little. 1421 01:47:52,418 --> 01:47:57,601 I mean, just Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Princess Mononoke. 1422 01:47:57,601 --> 01:47:59,366 They're just really mainstream stuff. 1423 01:47:59,366 --> 01:48:00,927 Just like a handful. 1424 01:48:00,927 --> 01:48:02,369 Yeah, just a handful. 1425 01:48:02,369 --> 01:48:04,180 I'm not a big anime guy. 1426 01:48:04,385 --> 01:48:08,771 I have only ever watched the Animatrix if that gives you any context. 1427 01:48:08,788 --> 01:48:11,830 Gardener, you gotta get you into some more anime. 1428 01:48:12,671 --> 01:48:18,654 The Animatrix is good, but there's more out there than just a Matrix spinoff. 1429 01:48:18,654 --> 01:48:25,858 But anyways, Crunchyroll has been discovered using AI-powered translations. 1430 01:48:26,539 --> 01:48:32,582 So, one of the biggest debates is uh subs versus dubs. 1431 01:48:32,582 --> 01:48:34,434 Now, what does that mean? 1432 01:48:34,434 --> 01:48:35,516 Well, it means... 1433 01:48:35,516 --> 01:48:42,960 watching it in Japanese with subtitles versus watching it in like English or German or Spanish or whatever language it is, right? 1434 01:48:44,441 --> 01:48:52,515 And these subtitles feature multiple grammatical errors and some subtitles have start with chat. 1435 01:48:52,515 --> 01:48:56,407 GPT said now that in the document there are some screenshots. 1436 01:48:56,407 --> 01:48:58,068 Are you able to pull those up James? 1437 01:48:58,622 --> 01:49:01,799 Oh jeez, yeah sorry, I'm doing a horrible job of... 1438 01:49:02,744 --> 01:49:03,668 Yeah, here we go. 1439 01:49:03,668 --> 01:49:04,748 It's all good, man. 1440 01:49:04,748 --> 01:49:05,688 Yeah. 1441 01:49:06,488 --> 01:49:08,988 So look at that. 1442 01:49:08,988 --> 01:49:12,768 It says, chat GPT said when Ike died. 1443 01:49:12,768 --> 01:49:13,419 I'm not sure. 1444 01:49:13,419 --> 01:49:17,590 So basically, here's my thing. 1445 01:49:18,090 --> 01:49:30,330 A lot of people have issues with localizers because they quote unquote mistranslate, like because they want exact translations, but like they don't really want exact. 1446 01:49:30,330 --> 01:49:32,150 And they claim they want AI to translate. 1447 01:49:32,150 --> 01:49:38,270 But this is what happens when AI translates to a different language. 1448 01:49:38,270 --> 01:49:40,606 And they don't do the work in like 1449 01:49:40,795 --> 01:49:42,738 They don't do the work of cleaning that shit up. 1450 01:49:42,738 --> 01:49:45,522 There's like no human oversight basically. 1451 01:49:46,444 --> 01:49:47,684 Yeah, and one of them says... 1452 01:49:47,684 --> 01:49:55,643 if this is more like a disgruntled employee to put in this is what they said This is what you said It's too bizarre 1453 01:49:55,643 --> 01:49:56,582 we have no idea. 1454 01:49:56,582 --> 01:50:01,726 They did this for a new series called Necronomico and the Cosmic Horror Story, which I haven't seen yet. 1455 01:50:01,726 --> 01:50:03,204 I don't know what it's about. 1456 01:50:03,204 --> 01:50:05,128 It looks very colorful, by the way. 1457 01:50:06,409 --> 01:50:06,909 It's... 1458 01:50:06,909 --> 01:50:07,910 mean, shit, man. 1459 01:50:07,910 --> 01:50:09,130 What the fuck? 1460 01:50:10,431 --> 01:50:15,454 Is it incompetence or is it malicious slickness? 1461 01:50:16,008 --> 01:50:26,001 This seems like it's just an automated thing, like they're not even reviewing any of the results, they're just running maybe a script that they wrote to translate stuff. 1462 01:50:26,328 --> 01:50:39,508 are the jobs AI are coming for because if the company doesn't really care about a certain quality standard and just needs to just get anything out, then yeah, that's the sort of 1463 01:50:39,508 --> 01:50:41,688 stuff that AI can take over on. 1464 01:50:41,688 --> 01:50:47,648 Because if you don't care if your quality drops 20, 30%, then yeah, AI can open up a lot of doors. 1465 01:50:47,672 --> 01:50:49,673 Yeah, you know, know, know, funny story though. 1466 01:50:49,673 --> 01:51:00,065 This isn't related to the topic at hand, but crunchy roll started out as an anime piracy website where you could watch animes that were like subtitled by they they're called fans. 1467 01:51:00,065 --> 01:51:01,246 They're called fansubs. 1468 01:51:01,246 --> 01:51:01,826 Yeah. 1469 01:51:01,826 --> 01:51:02,086 Yeah. 1470 01:51:02,086 --> 01:51:07,147 I watched Naruto when I was a kid on there with my older brother, with my older brothers. 1471 01:51:07,187 --> 01:51:07,477 Yeah. 1472 01:51:07,477 --> 01:51:17,114 They had a date bio fansubs for Naruto when the Japanese only episodes were still, you know, not they weren't brought over here still. 1473 01:51:17,114 --> 01:51:18,917 But yeah, that's basically why. 1474 01:51:18,917 --> 01:51:22,473 They also had a pirated K-drama too, back in the day as well. 1475 01:51:22,473 --> 01:51:23,964 The Korean dramas. 1476 01:51:24,056 --> 01:51:37,634 they started out by like taking the videos and they translate them and now they're just like completely the opposite now, completely paid and they don't do any translations 1477 01:51:37,634 --> 01:51:38,654 themselves. 1478 01:51:39,614 --> 01:51:41,253 Or at least they're going that way. 1479 01:51:41,253 --> 01:51:47,605 they uploaded the videos with fan translations from people. 1480 01:51:47,905 --> 01:51:49,355 they are mostly... 1481 01:51:49,355 --> 01:51:51,586 Yeah, that's still something. 1482 01:51:51,586 --> 01:51:53,627 And, you know, Sony owns them now. 1483 01:51:54,487 --> 01:51:56,187 They're owned by Sony now. 1484 01:51:58,488 --> 01:52:01,809 Sony owns a lot of the anime industry in the West. 1485 01:52:01,969 --> 01:52:03,962 Like the translations and shit. 1486 01:52:03,962 --> 01:52:09,942 owns a lot of it too, you know, and then intrinsically Sony, yep. 1487 01:52:12,002 --> 01:52:16,302 I'm curious, oh, that does actually sound really good. 1488 01:52:16,302 --> 01:52:21,422 Let's not talk about, so I am curious about this. 1489 01:52:21,422 --> 01:52:26,942 Like, I think automated AI translations, well, not, don't even know about translations. 1490 01:52:26,942 --> 01:52:28,982 I know YouTube's rolling something out, aren't they? 1491 01:52:28,982 --> 01:52:32,382 Like, you can translate videos. 1492 01:52:32,436 --> 01:52:35,587 into uh different languages now with YouTube. 1493 01:52:35,587 --> 01:52:40,909 um Is this just going to be a trend that's going to go into games? 1494 01:52:40,909 --> 01:52:44,271 I'm assuming games also probably some game studios do this too. 1495 01:52:44,491 --> 01:52:53,054 But every gonna just like the so if you watch subs, I'm not as big into the subs just because I don't want to read. 1496 01:52:53,054 --> 01:52:55,935 I usually distract myself. 1497 01:52:55,976 --> 01:52:59,787 I usually do work and then distract myself with shows and stuff slightly. 1498 01:52:59,787 --> 01:53:00,557 But 1499 01:53:02,508 --> 01:53:09,328 The translation is very important because if you get it wrong, really just really screws up the whole show, in my opinion. 1500 01:53:09,328 --> 01:53:10,698 ah 1501 01:53:10,698 --> 01:53:17,318 mean to be honest I'm kind of used to really bad translations as I've played a lot of like, g-r-p-g's that brought over to the west. 1502 01:53:17,318 --> 01:53:18,618 You know, know how it is. 1503 01:53:18,818 --> 01:53:22,238 but I mean you can point them out very easily if you know how to read. 1504 01:53:22,238 --> 01:53:24,198 But here's, here's the thing though. 1505 01:53:24,418 --> 01:53:34,998 They could have masked this whole situation had they had someone like, read over it and then correct any bad grammatical errors or shit like ChatGPT said, you know, assuming it 1506 01:53:34,998 --> 01:53:38,289 wasn't some sort of disgruntled intern or some bulge like that. 1507 01:53:38,289 --> 01:53:40,230 I don't know man, it's a crazy situation. 1508 01:53:40,230 --> 01:53:51,019 know, Crunchyroll's president, Rahul Parini, he said in the past that there's no plans to use AI in the creative process, and that they wouldn't use AI to impact voice actors. 1509 01:53:52,080 --> 01:53:56,875 But, I mean, are translations not also part of the, uh 1510 01:53:56,875 --> 01:53:58,054 I would say so. 1511 01:53:58,054 --> 01:53:59,815 Yeah, I think that's a lie. 1512 01:54:00,176 --> 01:54:14,064 I think anyone that says that at this point, and I hate to say this, but as AI gets better, and I can promise you that AI has drastically better over just a year alone, ah I 1513 01:54:14,064 --> 01:54:21,651 don't think it's gonna replace, they're gonna try to replace jobs, they'll fail at this with certain jobs, but some jobs it will just replace. 1514 01:54:21,651 --> 01:54:26,574 if the company doesn't do it and they have competition, which. 1515 01:54:26,770 --> 01:54:28,512 Crunchy Roll really doesn't. 1516 01:54:28,733 --> 01:54:36,746 But some of these, like let's say games, then they might lose out sells, they might lose out to other, to competition. 1517 01:54:36,746 --> 01:54:40,713 So if they say they're not gonna do it, they're just lying. 1518 01:54:40,713 --> 01:54:42,114 They're thinking about it. 1519 01:54:42,830 --> 01:54:45,051 Yeah, I don't know man. 1520 01:54:45,051 --> 01:54:48,033 It's a weird, it's a terrible situation all around. 1521 01:54:48,673 --> 01:54:55,717 And I mean, at least they're not doing it for the dubs, but I don't watch anime dubs, to be honest. 1522 01:54:55,717 --> 01:54:57,858 It's just not a thing I do, cause... 1523 01:54:58,670 --> 01:54:59,999 I don't know. 1524 01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:07,103 I mean, I am kind of a purist, but it's also because it's just kind of how I've watched anime like almost my entire life. 1525 01:55:08,104 --> 01:55:09,924 Except for like Dragon Ball Z. 1526 01:55:09,985 --> 01:55:12,598 Yeah, except for like Dragon Ball Z. 1527 01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:17,134 I watched that on TV when I was a kid and it was dubbed. 1528 01:55:17,535 --> 01:55:22,149 But yeah, it's a very disappointing situation to see Crunchyroll go through. 1529 01:55:22,149 --> 01:55:29,397 And it's not like I watch anime and Crunchyroll anyways, but I certainly won't be doing it even more. 1530 01:55:29,397 --> 01:55:34,708 Yeah, it's definitely voting also for the other industries like I mentioned. 1531 01:55:34,708 --> 01:55:42,628 um So with that, any other topics we want on the cover, Hi Tech, we're gonna call this. 1532 01:55:42,628 --> 01:55:44,420 We're let Russ go. 1533 01:55:44,420 --> 01:55:46,200 did skip a topic. 1534 01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:48,360 I don't know if we have time to talk about it. 1535 01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:50,200 Gardner, what do you think? 1536 01:55:50,200 --> 01:55:52,397 Do we have time talk about it? 1537 01:55:52,397 --> 01:55:54,277 I gotta pick up Emily pretty quickly here. 1538 01:55:54,277 --> 01:55:56,492 Yeah. 1539 01:55:56,492 --> 01:55:57,952 I was just gonna go over it really quickly. 1540 01:55:57,952 --> 01:55:58,332 Nexus... 1541 01:55:58,332 --> 01:56:00,592 I'm gonna go over it really quickly and like, yeah. 1542 01:56:00,592 --> 01:56:05,352 Nexus Mod requires age verification in the EU and UK for adult content. 1543 01:56:05,932 --> 01:56:08,392 Adult content typically means, like, porn. 1544 01:56:08,752 --> 01:56:13,452 But, in this case, the definition of adult content goes even further than that. 1545 01:56:13,632 --> 01:56:21,912 They include porn, extreme violence, harmful substances, suicide, self-harm, depression, body stigma... 1546 01:56:21,980 --> 01:56:27,880 eating disorders, swearing, or profanity, and sexualized, as they call it. 1547 01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:33,559 It's a pretty big list, I don't know if I agree with all of that. 1548 01:56:33,559 --> 01:56:38,842 Yeah, I mean it's their platform and they're probably going by the law in the UK. 1549 01:56:38,842 --> 01:56:41,116 Yeah, it sounds like a legal thing, unfortunately. 1550 01:56:41,116 --> 01:56:43,130 be depressed if you're under 18. 1551 01:56:43,502 --> 01:56:44,566 Yeah. 1552 01:56:44,601 --> 01:56:59,481 I don't think it's a bad thing to go little extreme sometimes, as long as they're not getting rid of it, but they're putting it behind an age verification system, then I'm a 1553 01:56:59,481 --> 01:57:07,801 little bit more of being safe, but I also have kids, so I'd rather be safe, and they can just turn 18 and then they can play all they want. 1554 01:57:07,801 --> 01:57:13,291 They're gonna be over 18 most of their lives, so a few years won't kill them. 1555 01:57:13,291 --> 01:57:13,843 I guess. 1556 01:57:13,843 --> 01:57:18,366 I know it's a weird way to think about it, guess, but I'm fine with it. 1557 01:57:18,366 --> 01:57:21,589 ever seen any mods featuring eating disorders? 1558 01:57:21,589 --> 01:57:24,631 I can't think of a single game that's ever done that. 1559 01:57:24,872 --> 01:57:26,593 Or any modder that's- 1560 01:57:27,536 --> 01:57:38,720 if they're gonna count stuff like, you know, eating rate meat rates in something like Oblivion or DayZ or something where they're like, okay, they're eating, they're messing up 1561 01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:42,518 the files, or you eat cheese to get health or something. 1562 01:57:42,518 --> 01:57:45,313 I wonder if that's even gonna fall under this, actually. 1563 01:57:45,313 --> 01:57:56,382 I think eating disorders would probably be like a super skinny model or maybe some stuff like that or but yeah, that's bizarre though. 1564 01:57:56,382 --> 01:57:57,913 Is there a mod that's like that? 1565 01:57:57,913 --> 01:57:59,144 Maybe, maybe like. 1566 01:57:59,144 --> 01:58:00,208 uh 1567 01:58:00,208 --> 01:58:09,414 is a feature in Metal Gear Solid 3 where you can rotate where I forget it's a menu in the game you can rotate the camera around to make Snake purge whatever he ate in case he ate 1568 01:58:09,414 --> 01:58:11,093 like a poisonous snake or anything like that 1569 01:58:11,093 --> 01:58:12,165 that's very important. 1570 01:58:12,165 --> 01:58:14,228 That's not an eating disorder, though. 1571 01:58:15,030 --> 01:58:17,163 And I don't think they'd ever classify that. 1572 01:58:17,415 --> 01:58:19,940 It could- It could fall into the net though. 1573 01:58:20,583 --> 01:58:21,524 But... 1574 01:58:22,308 --> 01:58:22,788 Yeah. 1575 01:58:22,788 --> 01:58:27,639 because with Nexus mods, you can get some very extreme mods. 1576 01:58:27,639 --> 01:58:31,070 And so I agree, like how is this going to be handled? 1577 01:58:31,070 --> 01:58:36,242 It will be interesting, but uh there are some pretty extreme mods out there. 1578 01:58:36,242 --> 01:58:43,824 And I do think that this is important, but yeah, there's some open-ended questions like the eating disorders one is interesting. 1579 01:58:44,444 --> 01:58:46,825 Body stigma, interesting. 1580 01:58:46,993 --> 01:58:48,796 swearing profanity. 1581 01:58:48,978 --> 01:58:53,500 There was a huge stink when YouTube tried to censor that shit like a while ago. 1582 01:58:53,500 --> 01:58:57,168 Yeah, I definitely don't think that needs to be censored in adult content. 1583 01:58:57,168 --> 01:58:58,882 Swearing in profanity is not a big deal. 1584 01:58:58,882 --> 01:58:59,762 That's... 1585 01:58:59,888 --> 01:59:03,628 Plus middle schoolers swear all the fucking time. 1586 01:59:03,841 --> 01:59:05,304 sorry, I do too, I guess. 1587 01:59:06,905 --> 01:59:13,429 Yeah, it's almost feels like a religious thing almost at that point, but yeah, I don't know. 1588 01:59:13,449 --> 01:59:15,610 I think, I don't think it's bad. 1589 01:59:15,610 --> 01:59:27,128 And once again, like, I think a lot of it could actually, like a lot of teenagers, I think do get into the modding thing and along with social media and this, I think could help 1590 01:59:27,128 --> 01:59:29,379 them getting into some bad habits. 1591 01:59:29,420 --> 01:59:33,382 But I'm also, you know, 1592 01:59:33,382 --> 01:59:39,985 in my 30s and I don't care that I lock out some kids from doing this, from the mod. 1593 01:59:39,985 --> 01:59:40,635 So I don't know. 1594 01:59:40,635 --> 01:59:43,166 As long as it's not banned altogether. 1595 01:59:43,166 --> 01:59:48,269 um Yeah, so that's it. 1596 01:59:48,269 --> 01:59:51,311 Anything else you guys wanna say on this topic or should we start calling it? 1597 01:59:51,311 --> 01:59:52,091 Let's do this. 1598 01:59:52,091 --> 01:59:53,471 Let's sign off. 1599 01:59:53,831 --> 01:59:56,131 Ross, do you want to plug anything extra? 1600 01:59:56,131 --> 02:00:02,427 I know we already plugged your your channel and your and the movement, but anything more you want to do or do want to reiterate? 1601 02:00:02,427 --> 02:00:05,712 I'm kind of singular in focus these days. 1602 02:00:05,814 --> 02:00:06,835 Happy when it's done. 1603 02:00:06,835 --> 02:00:12,055 So yeah, stop killing games.com for info, how to the initiative. 1604 02:00:12,429 --> 02:00:13,302 Nice. 1605 02:00:13,549 --> 02:00:15,137 Good work, by the way. 1606 02:00:15,185 --> 02:00:16,439 Yeah, go sign the position. 1607 02:00:16,439 --> 02:00:17,178 It gets... 1608 02:00:17,178 --> 02:00:18,770 you're eligible, don't... 1609 02:00:19,393 --> 02:00:23,452 EU citizens only, though you can live anywhere, and you have to be at least voting age. 1610 02:00:23,452 --> 02:00:25,713 Yeah man, hope for the best man. 1611 02:00:25,713 --> 02:00:34,902 I know it's a hard fought battle man but I'm glad you're doing it because I don't know if I would be able to do it if I started up. 1612 02:00:35,744 --> 02:00:36,383 To be honest. 1613 02:00:36,383 --> 02:00:40,831 a nagging doubt at the end of this, however it turns out, you know? 1614 02:00:41,273 --> 02:00:45,591 You've probably had that feeling where, if only I'd done this, maybe things would have gone differently. 1615 02:00:45,591 --> 02:00:47,584 I'm not gonna have that. 1616 02:00:48,427 --> 02:00:49,264 Yeah. 1617 02:00:49,460 --> 02:00:51,040 Yeah, move forward, man. 1618 02:00:51,040 --> 02:00:54,980 The battle may be won, technically speaking, but the war... 1619 02:00:54,980 --> 02:00:57,579 I feel like we're in for... 1620 02:00:57,579 --> 02:00:59,940 We'll keep updating... 1621 02:00:59,995 --> 02:01:03,000 Yeah, but it'll be other people fighting it past my... 1622 02:01:03,002 --> 02:01:07,645 I just needed it to cross that threshold that somebody else takes over, 1623 02:01:07,645 --> 02:01:12,270 it's, I think it will set some good precedents and I think it will, it will continue with momentum. 1624 02:01:12,270 --> 02:01:15,814 Cause I do think there's a lot of importance with these types of movements. 1625 02:01:15,814 --> 02:01:18,616 So I think you're doing a great job. 1626 02:01:19,097 --> 02:01:22,059 Doesn't mean you need to spend the rest of your life doing it. 1627 02:01:22,344 --> 02:01:22,687 haha 1628 02:01:22,687 --> 02:01:23,547 no. 1629 02:01:24,169 --> 02:01:26,693 I never wanted to do this. 1630 02:01:26,693 --> 02:01:29,637 It's just it bothered the hell out of me. 1631 02:01:30,074 --> 02:01:31,550 it needed to be done. 1632 02:01:31,550 --> 02:01:32,268 Yeah. 1633 02:01:32,268 --> 02:01:33,268 Yeah. 1634 02:01:34,028 --> 02:01:36,348 Well, good job. 1635 02:01:36,708 --> 02:01:37,248 Yeah. 1636 02:01:37,248 --> 02:01:39,588 So with that, let's call it. 1637 02:01:39,588 --> 02:01:45,248 Let's let everyone go so they can go, I guess, enjoy their lives on a nice Saturday. 1638 02:01:45,288 --> 02:01:50,159 But thank you guys for watching and let's peace out, guess. 1639 02:01:50,159 --> 02:01:51,032 Thanks for watching everybody. 1640 02:01:51,032 --> 02:01:52,288 Alright, take care. 1641 02:01:52,804 --> 02:01:53,598 Later guys.